Ok, well I'm still trying to understand what I've been reading about but I thought I would share it with all of you cause I found it quite interesting to read.
Well I was on Wikipedia today and something caught my attention. The idea of a grandfather paradox. This thoery, at least to me is best explained in an example.
The paradox is this: suppose a man traveled back in time and killed his biological grandfather before the latter met the traveller's grandmother. As a result, one of the traveller's parents (and by extension, the traveller himself) would never have been conceived. This would imply that he could not have travelled back in time after all, which in turn implies the grandfather would still be alive, and the traveller would have been conceived, allowing him to travel back in time and kill his grandfather. Thus each possibility seems to imply its own negation, a type of logical paradox.
So if a time machine was invented and someone was to go back in time, would this cause a time loop or parallel universes?
So this basic idea applied to the idea of Quantum suicide and immortality. And again these theorys are best explained in examples, so here we go.
For example,
A man sits down before a gun, which is pointed at his head. This is no ordinary gun; it's rigged to a machine that measures the spin of a quantum particle. Each time the trigger is pulled, the spin of the quantum particle -- or quark -- is measured. Depending on the measurement, the gun will either fire, or it won't. If the quantum particle is measured as spinning in a clockwise motion, the gun will fire. If the quark is spinning counterclockwise, the gun won't go off. There'll only be a click.
Nervously, the man takes a breath and pulls the trigger. The gun clicks. He pulls the trigger again. Click. And again: click. The man will continue to pull the trigger again and again with the same result: The gun won't fire. Although it's functioning properly and loaded with bullets, no matter how many times he pulls the trigger, the gun will never fire. He'll continue this process for eternity, becoming immortal.
Go back in time to the beginning of the experiment. The man pulls the trigger for the very first time, and the quark is now measured as spinning clockwise. The gun fires. The man is dead.
But, wait. The man already pulled the trigger the first time -- and an infinite amount of times following that -- and we already know the gun didn't fire. How can the man be dead? The man is unaware, but he's both alive and dead. Each time he pulls the trigger, the universe is split in two. It will continue to split, again and again, each time the trigger is pulled, and becoming quantum immortal.
After reading this I found this idea similar to the movie The Prestige if you have ever seen that movie.
Anyways, I'm just wondering is the key of immortality locked away in time travel and not the medical field? And, if the idea of quantum immortality is correct does our being, our existance as individual beings transfer to the other "us" to where we are still alive.
Also just for arguement sake, do you think there are parallel universes already that exist, and we are just a branch from the actual first timeline of history?
I'm still forming my own opinions and there are other theorys, these ones just intrigued me the most. Any thoughts?
It doesn't really have anything to do with immortality. It's just an extension of Schrodinger's cat, which basically says that if you don't observe something (thus pinning down the "truth" of it), then it exists in all states at the same time.
Time paradoxes are really interesting to think about. Say you invent a time machine, go back in time, and give yourself a coin. Your past self keeps that coin until one day inventing a time machine, and giving it to yourself. But if you got the coin from yourself, and yourself got it from yourself, and so on ad infinitum, then where did the coin come from? Seemingly nowhere. The parallel universe theory is an attempt to solve problems like this.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Walk tall, kick ass, learn to speak Arabic, love music and never forget you come from a long line of truth seekers, lovers and warriors.
-Hunter S. Thompson
I dont think that solves the problem of where the coin came from, it just confuses and clouds it more because of the loop, it never gets solved. But, immortality in theory, esp. with quantum immortality theory seems possible if time travel is possible, whether it already is was or will be, if you follow me. lol
Edit: another thing to think about is this, i was wondering about this.
If someone caused a parallel universe, and the universe as I'm living right now is the newly made parallel universe of the original universe then am I by some chance living a different path than from what my original life was going to be? Esp. if by some chance I was involved in the events that cause the parallel universe to be made in the first place.
That is a theory I came up with a few years ago to explain that paradox. Time travel is technically possible but would require a particle accelerator larger than the earth. They would have to capture quark gluon plasma particle, split it, and then expand both pieces to accommodate cargo. One would be placed near an object with an enormous mass (the gravity would cause time to slow down, almost to a complete stop), and the other would be placed on earth. Elaborate yet possible.
Hm interesting, not quite I'm following it exactly but I catch the main idea I think. Read both the wikipedias, esp the quantum immortality one. dude i think immortality is locked away in time travel.
The theory is that if you split a gluon it will be in two places at the same time, they would then have to exert an enormous amount of energy to make them expand (supposedly a gluon cant retract so they wouldn't need to keep exerting energy once they got it to the right size), turning the two inflated particles into a wormhole. But this is sort of off topic so I'll stop right here.*READING WIKI*
Say you invent a time machine, go back in time, and give yourself a coin. Your past self keeps that coin until one day inventing a time machine, and giving it to yourself. But if you got the coin from yourself, and yourself got it from yourself, and so on ad infinitum, then where did the coin come from? Seemingly nowhere. The parallel universe theory is an attempt to solve problems like this.
If your theory is correct then free choice is condemned. If your theory is correct then a destiny is presented in everyones life and you cant turn agaisnt it. Because, each time the loop is started over, or even during the loop, at any time you have the freedom or choice to disobey and not continue the loop, that is if freedom or choice exists over destiny. So if you are right freedom of choice doesnt exist and everyone follows a set path in their life that they can't turn back on. Or, in the very least, if you start a time loop, you cannot end it, which I think time loops, if they exist or ever will exist, can be ended. Well depending on the type, but a simple grandfather paradox, which your version is a twisted version of a grandfather paraox, that could be ended quite easily, although it might create parallel universes, but i havent thought that part out yet, for your scenario that is.
@ murderface.
ok thats a little over my comprehension neways. but i kinda see what ur sayin, yeah def read the wikis, and u can some of the other theorys too, they're interesting as well, those 2 wiki links are the 2 best though for what we are talking about i found though.
I'm predisposed to the theory that alternate dimensions are constantly splitting off like a tree with infinite branches. It's my belief that the soul is an extradimensional entity that searches for vessels that can interact with reality. They use the our bodies functions to view the splendor of each and every dimension.
Kenzai, sounds to me like you are an Atheist more than you are an Agnostic.
Anyways, in response to the whole idea of Quantum Immortality, I see one blatant flaw with it: The man would continue to live and die over and over with each click of the bullet, sure. But he would also be aging, right? So, in other words, he would eventually just die of old age, even in the scenario where a bullet never exits the gun. (Just saying lol).
I suppose in theory one could argue that for every one of us there exists a parallel universe in which our cells miraculously continue to survive and we, in fact, never die. (Of course that's all within the Parallel Universe theory, though).
There simply IS-NOT-A-WAY for us humans to damn find out "the truth" about "everything".
Or at least during my lifetime... i guess.
Its probably that our brains are just so limited.
Uhh... I dont know. Thinking about such things is fascinating but never leads anyway and chances are, you'll loose your mind. LOL
I find your lack of faith disturbing...Though actually, you're right. Godel proved that we can't prove all true statements, even when dealing with mathematics. Craziness. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%B6del%27s_incompleteness_theorems
That is kind of interesting. Why do we think we're even capable of understanding life, the universe, and everything? We don't even have women figured out yet.
I don't even find the idea of immortality attractive. I think our relatively short-lived lives are what give us ambition. Can you imagine how different society and culture would be if we lived to 1000 instead of 75ish? Think of all the implications. http://digg.com/d1nIPh
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Walk tall, kick ass, learn to speak Arabic, love music and never forget you come from a long line of truth seekers, lovers and warriors.
-Hunter S. Thompson
My lack of fate?
Yeah its disturbing but its just the conclusion i came to.
Something in Wiki just drew my attention. Those "axiom"s...
Its something we just assume is true because logic or common sense or whatever clearly says so.
But (i think i said this before) what is "common sense" or "logic" anyway? Seriously... You know, i think it simply is somehow the LIMIT of our brains. Because you cant explain the reason of such things while you just naturally come to such conclusions...
The problem with physics now is that they're studying things so ridiculously complex that us non-geniuses have to take it on faith that they know what they're doing. Newtonian physics could be understood for the most part by a high school student. Even relativity isn't that hard to grasp. But quantum mechanics and string theory are just....ridiculous!
The ending is a bit disingenuous. Observation fundamentally changes the experiment, because you have to "hit" the electrons with something else to observe them, much the way that we only see things because they are being struck with photons which are gathered by our eyes.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Walk tall, kick ass, learn to speak Arabic, love music and never forget you come from a long line of truth seekers, lovers and warriors.
-Hunter S. Thompson
Observation fundamentally changes the experiment, because you have to "hit" the electrons with something else to observe them, much the way that we only see things because they are being struck with photons which are gathered by our eyes.
heisenberg's uncertainty principle
that video is great.
you have to do the double slit experiment in college physics 2 and i would have understood it so much better if i would have seen that video first.
the craziest part to me is that the particles can be at infinite places at once. article about it
as for the time travel paradoxes.. maybe they'd just cause the universe to implode
this article is about a scientist trying to make a time travel device, though it doesn't go into much detail. here
on immortality,
i used to follow the research of cynthia kenyon: through genetic manipulation she's gotten organisms to live much much longer than their normal lifespans.. and they remain "young" their entire lives.
also her research is part of why some say that fasting or limited sugar/carb intake will slow down the aging process.
something else i was thinking about awhile ago, about immortality or significantly increased lifespan..
think about the social implications beyond just overpopulation problems.
imagine there was a drug developed tomorrow that could significantly increase lifespan.. who would have access to it? only the very richest/powerful.
taken to the extreme you could have humanity split into the upper immortals vs the lower mortal men.
i think it could have really bad consequences.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
they'll never see me coming.. life is a sequence of tragedies, inconsistent only by fleeting, elusive moments of pleasure,
serving only to ensure absolute vulnerability to the pain of their inevitable absence.
can you please explain this? what can you actually "hit" them with? the photons hit them and go to your eye and you see.
yes the photon hits the electron and has an effect on the electron of changing it's course.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
they'll never see me coming.. life is a sequence of tragedies, inconsistent only by fleeting, elusive moments of pleasure,
serving only to ensure absolute vulnerability to the pain of their inevitable absence.
I would not want to live forever. For whatever you may believe, there is either nothing or there is something waiting for you. If you believe in something, it is either a type of reincarnation or you transcend to a sort of *heaven*. If you believe there is nothing, then what is it really?
Time travel seems plausible to me, but overall a difficulty to create something that can pull it off. I heard a few months ago that scientists sent a photon to the future or past (Here it is).
Anyways, in response to the whole idea of Quantum Immortality, I see one blatant flaw with it: The man would continue to live and die over and over with each click of the bullet, sure. But he would also be aging, right? So, in other words, he would eventually just die of old age, even in the scenario where a bullet never exits the gun. (Just saying lol).
Yeah I see what youre saying, I guess you would still age. Quantum immortality is a way of living after you have actually died though. So even though you will eventually die of old age, you can still dodge death. Unless the first time you try and "duplciate" yourself you die, because of the 50-50 chance. This reminds me so much of the movie the Prestige where the magician makes a double of himself to do the trick of the transported man. his original self drops into a tank where he drownds and his copy is transported to another place, thus transported. Its a twist on this theory but it uses its basic concept.
@ Blackwing
hm if they can send back particles, then with time maybe the technology will advance to bigger objects. But, maybe it's already happened, not in our timeline, if you catch my drift. lol.
The Double slit experiment. HOLY SHIT!!! I'm going to go drink some more, and try to forget about this. Way too much for my brain to comprehend. Fucking scientists and their quest for knowledge. One day, their obsession will kill everything.
The Double slit experiment. HOLY SHIT!!! I'm going to go drink some more, and try to forget about this. Way too much for my brain to comprehend. Fucking scientists and their quest for knowledge. One day, their obsession will kill everything.
What'll really fry your nuts is when you start thinking that, according to some theories, it already has.
Quote from "TwilightRealm" »
Yeah I see what youre saying, I guess you would still age. Quantum immortality is a way of living after you have actually died though. So even though you will eventually die of old age, you can still dodge death. Unless the first time you try and "duplciate" yourself you die, because of the 50-50 chance.
Yeah, although assuming there is an alternate universe for every possible outcome of everything, then, like I've already said, there is actually a universe out there where each one of us lives for eternity.
Well I was on Wikipedia today and something caught my attention. The idea of a grandfather paradox. This thoery, at least to me is best explained in an example.
The paradox is this: suppose a man traveled back in time and killed his biological grandfather before the latter met the traveller's grandmother. As a result, one of the traveller's parents (and by extension, the traveller himself) would never have been conceived. This would imply that he could not have travelled back in time after all, which in turn implies the grandfather would still be alive, and the traveller would have been conceived, allowing him to travel back in time and kill his grandfather. Thus each possibility seems to imply its own negation, a type of logical paradox.
So if a time machine was invented and someone was to go back in time, would this cause a time loop or parallel universes?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grandfather_paradox - An interesting read, and helpful, if you are interested in reading more about this theory.
So this basic idea applied to the idea of Quantum suicide and immortality. And again these theorys are best explained in examples, so here we go.
For example,
A man sits down before a gun, which is pointed at his head. This is no ordinary gun; it's rigged to a machine that measures the spin of a quantum particle. Each time the trigger is pulled, the spin of the quantum particle -- or quark -- is measured. Depending on the measurement, the gun will either fire, or it won't. If the quantum particle is measured as spinning in a clockwise motion, the gun will fire. If the quark is spinning counterclockwise, the gun won't go off. There'll only be a click.
Nervously, the man takes a breath and pulls the trigger. The gun clicks. He pulls the trigger again. Click. And again: click. The man will continue to pull the trigger again and again with the same result: The gun won't fire. Although it's functioning properly and loaded with bullets, no matter how many times he pulls the trigger, the gun will never fire. He'll continue this process for eternity, becoming immortal.
Go back in time to the beginning of the experiment. The man pulls the trigger for the very first time, and the quark is now measured as spinning clockwise. The gun fires. The man is dead.
But, wait. The man already pulled the trigger the first time -- and an infinite amount of times following that -- and we already know the gun didn't fire. How can the man be dead? The man is unaware, but he's both alive and dead. Each time he pulls the trigger, the universe is split in two. It will continue to split, again and again, each time the trigger is pulled, and becoming quantum immortal.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_suicide_and_immortality - More about the Quantum suicide and immortality theory, very interesting read.
After reading this I found this idea similar to the movie The Prestige if you have ever seen that movie.
Anyways, I'm just wondering is the key of immortality locked away in time travel and not the medical field? And, if the idea of quantum immortality is correct does our being, our existance as individual beings transfer to the other "us" to where we are still alive.
Also just for arguement sake, do you think there are parallel universes already that exist, and we are just a branch from the actual first timeline of history?
I'm still forming my own opinions and there are other theorys, these ones just intrigued me the most. Any thoughts?
unzip, strip, touch, finger, grep, mount, fsck, more, yes, fsck, fsck, fsck, umount, sleep
Time paradoxes are really interesting to think about. Say you invent a time machine, go back in time, and give yourself a coin. Your past self keeps that coin until one day inventing a time machine, and giving it to yourself. But if you got the coin from yourself, and yourself got it from yourself, and so on ad infinitum, then where did the coin come from? Seemingly nowhere. The parallel universe theory is an attempt to solve problems like this.
-Hunter S. Thompson
TED . LEAP . Woot . MF
Edit: another thing to think about is this, i was wondering about this.
If someone caused a parallel universe, and the universe as I'm living right now is the newly made parallel universe of the original universe then am I by some chance living a different path than from what my original life was going to be? Esp. if by some chance I was involved in the events that cause the parallel universe to be made in the first place.
unzip, strip, touch, finger, grep, mount, fsck, more, yes, fsck, fsck, fsck, umount, sleep
Fuck you, I'm a dragon.
Hm interesting, not quite I'm following it exactly but I catch the main idea I think. Read both the wikipedias, esp the quantum immortality one. dude i think immortality is locked away in time travel.
unzip, strip, touch, finger, grep, mount, fsck, more, yes, fsck, fsck, fsck, umount, sleep
Fuck you, I'm a dragon.
If your theory is correct then free choice is condemned. If your theory is correct then a destiny is presented in everyones life and you cant turn agaisnt it. Because, each time the loop is started over, or even during the loop, at any time you have the freedom or choice to disobey and not continue the loop, that is if freedom or choice exists over destiny. So if you are right freedom of choice doesnt exist and everyone follows a set path in their life that they can't turn back on. Or, in the very least, if you start a time loop, you cannot end it, which I think time loops, if they exist or ever will exist, can be ended. Well depending on the type, but a simple grandfather paradox, which your version is a twisted version of a grandfather paraox, that could be ended quite easily, although it might create parallel universes, but i havent thought that part out yet, for your scenario that is.
@ murderface.
ok thats a little over my comprehension neways. but i kinda see what ur sayin, yeah def read the wikis, and u can some of the other theorys too, they're interesting as well, those 2 wiki links are the 2 best though for what we are talking about i found though.
unzip, strip, touch, finger, grep, mount, fsck, more, yes, fsck, fsck, fsck, umount, sleep
Fuck you, I'm a dragon.
Anyways, in response to the whole idea of Quantum Immortality, I see one blatant flaw with it: The man would continue to live and die over and over with each click of the bullet, sure. But he would also be aging, right? So, in other words, he would eventually just die of old age, even in the scenario where a bullet never exits the gun. (Just saying lol).
I find your lack of faith disturbing...Though actually, you're right. Godel proved that we can't prove all true statements, even when dealing with mathematics. Craziness.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%B6del%27s_incompleteness_theorems
That is kind of interesting. Why do we think we're even capable of understanding life, the universe, and everything? We don't even have women figured out yet.
I don't even find the idea of immortality attractive. I think our relatively short-lived lives are what give us ambition. Can you imagine how different society and culture would be if we lived to 1000 instead of 75ish? Think of all the implications.
http://digg.com/d1nIPh
-Hunter S. Thompson
TED . LEAP . Woot . MF
I was just quoting Vader lol....http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6p4T7_XI7WM
The problem with physics now is that they're studying things so ridiculously complex that us non-geniuses have to take it on faith that they know what they're doing. Newtonian physics could be understood for the most part by a high school student. Even relativity isn't that hard to grasp. But quantum mechanics and string theory are just....ridiculous!
Have you heard of the double slit experiment? It's nuts.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DfPeprQ7oGc
The ending is a bit disingenuous. Observation fundamentally changes the experiment, because you have to "hit" the electrons with something else to observe them, much the way that we only see things because they are being struck with photons which are gathered by our eyes.
-Hunter S. Thompson
TED . LEAP . Woot . MF
heisenberg's uncertainty principle
that video is great.
you have to do the double slit experiment in college physics 2 and i would have understood it so much better if i would have seen that video first.
the craziest part to me is that the particles can be at infinite places at once.
article about it
as for the time travel paradoxes.. maybe they'd just cause the universe to implode
this article is about a scientist trying to make a time travel device, though it doesn't go into much detail.
here
on immortality,
i used to follow the research of cynthia kenyon: through genetic manipulation she's gotten organisms to live much much longer than their normal lifespans.. and they remain "young" their entire lives.
also her research is part of why some say that fasting or limited sugar/carb intake will slow down the aging process.
something else i was thinking about awhile ago, about immortality or significantly increased lifespan..
think about the social implications beyond just overpopulation problems.
imagine there was a drug developed tomorrow that could significantly increase lifespan.. who would have access to it? only the very richest/powerful.
taken to the extreme you could have humanity split into the upper immortals vs the lower mortal men.
i think it could have really bad consequences.
they'll never see me coming..
life is a sequence of tragedies, inconsistent only by fleeting, elusive moments of pleasure,
serving only to ensure absolute vulnerability to the pain of their inevitable absence.
yes the photon hits the electron and has an effect on the electron of changing it's course.
they'll never see me coming..
life is a sequence of tragedies, inconsistent only by fleeting, elusive moments of pleasure,
serving only to ensure absolute vulnerability to the pain of their inevitable absence.
Time travel seems plausible to me, but overall a difficulty to create something that can pull it off. I heard a few months ago that scientists sent a photon to the future or past (Here it is).
Yeah I see what youre saying, I guess you would still age. Quantum immortality is a way of living after you have actually died though. So even though you will eventually die of old age, you can still dodge death. Unless the first time you try and "duplciate" yourself you die, because of the 50-50 chance. This reminds me so much of the movie the Prestige where the magician makes a double of himself to do the trick of the transported man. his original self drops into a tank where he drownds and his copy is transported to another place, thus transported. Its a twist on this theory but it uses its basic concept.
@ Blackwing
hm if they can send back particles, then with time maybe the technology will advance to bigger objects. But, maybe it's already happened, not in our timeline, if you catch my drift. lol.
unzip, strip, touch, finger, grep, mount, fsck, more, yes, fsck, fsck, fsck, umount, sleep
What'll really fry your nuts is when you start thinking that, according to some theories, it already has.
Yeah, although assuming there is an alternate universe for every possible outcome of everything, then, like I've already said, there is actually a universe out there where each one of us lives for eternity.