How can you honestly sit there and type that? There's hundreds of thousands of people that wanted into the closed beta that didn't get in. No matter how much they tried, regardless of the competitions they participated in, no matter what they could have done, it was out of their hands. They did not have 'direct' control and barely even had a means of influencing the randomization.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Oh pitiful shadow lost in the darkness,
Bringing torment and pain to others.
Your damned soul wallowing in your sin.
Perhaps... it is time to die.
How can you honestly sit there and type that? There's hundreds of thousands of people that wanted into the closed beta that didn't get in. No matter how much they tried, regardless of the competitions they participated in, no matter what they could have done, it was out of their hands. They didn't not have 'direct' control and barely even had a means of influencing the randomization.
They had control over it just like everyone else. They had the same odds as everyone else. You had to choose to do drawings, captions, cartoons, tweets, sign-up lists, photoshops and all the other myraid of things. Just because they weren't guaranteed a reward doesn't mean they had zero control.
Because people can control if they were following the game before launch. A lot of people couldn't control if they got into the beta. Even after trying multiple contest.
So now its control? Why should all fans get every reward? Why should someone that wants to get something be able to get it? You keep changing the logic you are using and applying it to different cases of the same situation. If the fan deserves the Beta sigil now, why don't they deserve to get the Inferno sigil just because they are a fan? Exclusive rewards by their very nature mean exclusive. CE, Mark of Valor, and Beta are all the same exact situations of exclusive rewards that exclude some people. They exclude people in different ways but they all have the chance of excluding fans. The problem is that you are creating entirely arbitrary rules for what is proper and what is not. Even when those rules conflict with themselves.
But nothing I have said is conflicting anything. Ill break it down some (its late and I have 20 things going on at once here, so I may have just not been putting my ideas down clearly today) Take this post as my -view- on it.
Class Unlocks - Anyone can get these as long as they had knowledge. (They can control this)
An Item ingame - Anyone can get this. Yes it may take a VERY VERY long time, or they may have to buy this off the RMAH (They can control this)
CE - There are still CE's out there not bought. It may cost a lot of money to get, BUT if someone wants those wings, they can. Even in other countries, there are copies on Ebay right now (They can control this)
Pre-order bonuses and World First achs (these dont apply to D3 I guess) BUT people have control over these. They have the option to pre-order or not. And the world first is based on skill. If they had the skill, the won.
There is always some control over it. Even when its a limited thing (such as world first) its based on something. [Now I know saying "controlling your skill" is borderline, but that's how I feel on that, that's fair game.]
Now with the beta. There are so many people that have been dying to get into the beta. They have been following just as much as the next guy. But there really was no (or how about I say, enough control.. that might be a better way to word it? [Now I know you're going to reply "wheres the line between enough control", I would say this is the line, you're welcome to give other examples])
It was 100% based on luck (keep in mind, tho everything in D3 is based off luck, you can keep going until your luck pays off with enough hard work, unlike with the beta keys). Yes there were contests, but those were also based on luck most of the time. (there were a few "first come first serve kind of ones, but the number of keys in those were so small it was kinda meh);
I mean its all going to come down to opinions in the end of course. But I just feel the beta thing is just out there enough to give it a fair shot to everything. People were already sad they couldnt get in, It just seems like this was kind of a double reward and I see why it bugs them.
(Now this last part there was just a thought, I know you're going to try and quote it saying "im changing the reason its bad again, im not =P)
A lottery is fair because it gives the same chances to everyone that enters. A lottery doesn't become unfair just because it gives a reward out to people that win but not to everyone that entered. Could Blizzard have given it out to everyone? Sure. Could they have done open beta too? Sure. Is it unfair, or is anyone cheated out of a reward? Nope.
That's a lottery. The beta in of itself was a lottery, I'll give you that much. However, once the game goes retail, it's no longer a lottery and that philosophy holds very little water. I simply disagree with the idea of in game rewards being handed out via lottery, it seems wrong to me. Once the game launches, people that buy it should be able to obtain the rewards within the game.
That being said, some of the rewards are catered more towards fans than others. Obviously, people that aren't fans of the game won't be able to obtain the class sigils. However, those people are much less likely to even care because, well, they aren't fans. However, the people that are fans of the game and do care about the cosmetic benefits of the game should be able to at least choose whether they go after that benefit or not. Unfortunately, with the beta rewards, that's not longer the case.
What you are saying is not fundamentally incorrect. It's just a different opinion. My opinion is that fans (anybody really) that followed the game should have access to the same rewards without having to rely on blind luck. It's obvious that you disagree and think luck should be rewarded and that's fine I suppose. I just don't agree with it.
How can you honestly sit there and type that? There's hundreds of thousands of people that wanted into the closed beta that didn't get in. No matter how much they tried, regardless of the competitions they participated in, no matter what they could have done, it was out of their hands. They didn't not have 'direct' control and barely even had a means of influencing the randomization.
They had control over it just like everyone else. They had the same odds as everyone else. You had to choose to do drawings, captions, cartoons, tweets, sign-up lists, photoshops and all the other myraid of things. Just because they weren't guaranteed a reward doesn't mean they had zero control.
You have to play to win.
There's a difference between having control over obtaining a reward and relying on dumb luck and hoping you get one. I also clearly stated that they could influence their odds (albeit only every so slightly), but ultimately it was still out of their control whether they got in or not.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Oh pitiful shadow lost in the darkness,
Bringing torment and pain to others.
Your damned soul wallowing in your sin.
Perhaps... it is time to die.
I rarely respond to things like this, but I think Blizz screwed up on this one. I've bought every Blizz game released, been a loyal WoW subsriber since launch day, and have had D3 on pre-order in spirit since D2 came out. Signed up for the beta, didn't get lucky. No complaints there, I get how it works. But to give players a title for randomly getting into the beta - although it doesn't REALLY matter at all - feels a little cold. It's frustrating enough I (and I'm sure many others) have never gotten into a Blizzard beta, despite signing up for all of them and getting every game at release. Do they realy need to rub it in by adding something like this?
Again, not a big deal. Blizz is usally spot on with things like this, but I'm not following their thinking this time.
1. It's hard to make everyone understand what the idea is, even when you speak to them face to face with a cup of tea.
2. People enjoy arguments, fighting for their ideas to be recognized. These make the forums fun to read and disscuss.
To rhorle:
1. Logic has been mentioned many times. I just begin to wonder, which logic do you mean? Logics in philosophy? Premises and conclusions? You know logic is a vague term.
2. I do agree with you to certain extent. In terms of the players who didn't not get into the closed beta should try just settle down, since we can not do much to alter the situation.
3. The decisions were not made by players as long as they love this game, they will have to follow Blizzard's call. Blizzard is the one who made these decisions. Now let's throw away the argument of how rightful or wrongful the decision was; did you mean the players have to take it? Now is it the same as people who bought the lottery? Is there right or wrong in lottery?
4. Payers did get punished by this decision. I.e. the 5 x class sigils are no longer the same value to where they were 1 week ago. Do you agree that if you publishing 6 banners for collection and getting only 5 out of 6 is devaluating / depressing?
Hope this gives some thoughts before we mindlessly throwing walls of text to each other.
I mean its all going to come down to opinions in the end of course. But I just feel the beta thing is just out there enough to give it a fair shot to everything. People were already sad they couldnt get in, It just seems like this was kind of a double reward and I see why it bugs them.
Thats what sparked all of this though. It can bug them, that is fine. But a lot of the people in this thread are displaying emotions far beyond "being bugged". When you have people saying blizzard "pissed on them" and wishing others cancer and that sentiment isn't just a few (even if those exact wordings are) people but a whole bunch.
I'm bugged about things all the time. But i'm not going to get upset about it or wish ill to people over it. I missed out, I missed out. A reward wouldn't feel special if it was something everyone could get. Nor would it make sense as a limited reward if anyone could get it. Would CE wings be special if anyone in the game could buy it off a vendor?
Not everyone deserves a reward just because they are a fan. That is what the Mark of Valor promotion was for. A reward for fans of the game. They also decided to award a sigil for Beta testers people that were supposed to spend the length of the beta shaping the game into something both developers and fans will like.
Just as I'm sure they will award one for Blizzcon and likely other Marketting events like the Mt.dew gamer fuel. They could even have world events to do X during that week to unlock a Sigil. The possibilites are endless. But if you only limit the system to everyone has to get a reward unless they can control everything then it will always be a lack luster system.
If RNG reward a sigil for Beta is bad, then RNG leading to rewarding a sigil is equally bad. Because at the base of it is the same concept. It doesn't matter if one happens post-retail, in-game, or anywhere else. Its all RNG offering a reward.
4. Payers did get punished by this decision. I.e. the 5 x class sigils are no longer the same value to where they were 1 week ago. Do you agree that if you publishing 6 banners for collection and getting only 5 out of 6 is devaluating / depressing?
The sigil's were always intended to have a period of time where you could gain all of them again. However no I don't think its punishing that I wouldn't have all Sigils. Because I didn't get all Sigils. I don't have any sense of entitlement to anything about the game just because I like the game and have been waiting to play it for years. It doesn't matter how things are distributed.
It makes it all the better for when I do eventually get said rare sigil or another unique reward when its my turn to win. If everyone has it or should have it then what is the point of not making it a base sigil of the game?
They are by no means whiners, and its a little insulting to call them that. A game that EVERYONE here has been waiting for, and only some get the sigils. The FoS is w/e noone really cares imo. The sigil is what I found odd about this. Giving us something that stands out on our flags that other hardcore fans can never get. (and there was nothing they could do to get it, unlike blizzcons and such).. its an odd move. Im still shocked by it myself.
So FoS, really no big deal
The sigil.. Its.. I dunno. I was surprised thats for sure.
why does a sigil matter? will it anger you to see it if you dont have it and somehow ruin your gaming experience?
Does it matter if it will anger them or not? does it matter if it adds to the gaming experience or not?
Some of those people have been just as hardcore of a Diablo fan as me. Those people have been waiting for this game none stop as long as me. Those people have been searching these forums every day trying to get all the news and jucicy info they could because they just can't wait to play this game.
Some of those people have made sure they have been unlocking every one of those class sigils because they want to have everything they can ingame. People love this game, they want to get everything they possibly can.
its hard enough on them already that they couldnt be in the beta as long as the rest of us.
There is no reason for the sigil. The only thing it does it makes those same hardcore fans feel left out. They can never get all the sigils like us, even tho they have been following the game for just as long.
I understand the whole idea of "random is random" ...ect But this just seems very odd.
Like I said, a FoS is a great idea, np with that. Just the sigil is a little far imo.
4. Payers did get punished by this decision. I.e. the 5 x class sigils are no longer the same value to where they were 1 week ago. Do you agree that if you publishing 6 banners for collection and getting only 5 out of 6 is devaluating / depressing?
The sigil's were always intended to have a period of time where you could gain all of them again. However no I don't think its punishing that I wouldn't have all Sigils. Because I didn't get all Sigils. I don't have any sense of entitlement to anything about the game just because I like the game and have been waiting to play it for years. It doesn't matter how things are distributed.
It makes it all the better for when I do eventually get said rare sigil or another unique reward when its my turn to win. If everyone has it or should have it then what is the point of not making it a base sigil of the game?
I understand what you saying and I am with you on this, no matter how many sigil I missed out, I still want to play and enjoy the game. The game will bring me more joy than doing many other things and that is what going to matter to me.
I might didn't get exactly what group of people you and Molster's posts were referring to? Were the discussions aimed to ourselves or were they refering to the player base? I may not made myself clear on the matter, sorry for the confusion, where I was not refering to you nor me. Now think about it for other people, who do care about these sigils and do value them highly for whatever purpose that we do not understand. Some of Molster's points could make sense?
Because people can control if they were following the game before launch. A lot of people couldn't control if they got into the beta. Even after trying multiple contest.
So now its control? Why should all fans get every reward? Why should someone that wants to get something be able to get it? You keep changing the logic you are using and applying it to different cases of the same situation. If the fan deserves the Beta sigil now, why don't they deserve to get the Inferno sigil just because they are a fan? Exclusive rewards by their very nature mean exclusive. CE, Mark of Valor, and Beta are all the same exact situations of exclusive rewards that exclude some people. They exclude people in different ways but they all have the chance of excluding fans. The problem is that you are creating entirely arbitrary rules for what is proper and what is not. Even when those rules conflict with themselves.
But nothing I have said is conflicting anything. Ill break it down some (its late and I have 20 things going on at once here, so I may have just not been putting my ideas down clearly today) Take this post as my -view- on it.
Class Unlocks - Anyone can get these as long as they had knowledge. (They can control this)
An Item ingame - Anyone can get this. Yes it may take a VERY VERY long time, or they may have to buy this off the RMAH (They can control this)
CE - There are still CE's out there not bought. It may cost a lot of money to get, BUT if someone wants those wings, they can. Even in other countries, there are copies on Ebay right now (They can control this)
Pre-order bonuses and World First achs (these dont apply to D3 I guess) BUT people have control over these. They have the option to pre-order or not. And the world first is based on skill. If they had the skill, the won.
There is always some control over it. Even when its a limited thing (such as world first) its based on something. [Now I know saying "controlling your skill" is borderline, but that's how I feel on that, that's fair game.]
Now with the beta. There are so many people that have been dying to get into the beta. They have been following just as much as the next guy. But there really was no (or how about I say, enough control.. that might be a better way to word it? [Now I know you're going to reply "wheres the line between enough control", I would say this is the line, you're welcome to give other examples])
It was 100% based on luck (keep in mind, tho everything in D3 is based off luck, you can keep going until your luck pays off with enough hard work, unlike with the beta keys). Yes there were contests, but those were also based on luck most of the time. (there were a few "first come first serve kind of ones, but the number of keys in those were so small it was kinda meh);
I mean its all going to come down to opinions in the end of course. But I just feel the beta thing is just out there enough to give it a fair shot to everything. People were already sad they couldnt get in, It just seems like this was kind of a double reward and I see why it bugs them.
(Now this last part there was just a thought, I know you're going to try and quote it saying "im changing the reason its bad again, im not =P)
Hey I never saw this one coming from you but I love your post a lot. I agree with this entirely.
Hey guys don't get me wrong I think the reward for being in closed beta was more then enough. Even though this is just a feat of strength I am a darn collector. I love Diablo so much I collect everything even novels, books, strat guides that I will never read but got it for the 80 pages of armor and etc.
Another big big thing is trying to get everything possible in my character profile page. This includes Feat of Strength and for people who played World of Warcraft I think you will admit Feat of Strength actually had a different feeling then how Blizzard is brushing it off as.
Not only that WoW had 1000's and 1000's and 1000's of achievements and they were not linked from char to char and you did not feel as special and etc but with Diablo you do and I think that really makes a big difference.
So for someone who likes to get everything possible of course fairly work for it this is like cutting one my fingers off and damn I would trade one right now for a darn FoS.
what is the point of ANY contest that gives out exclusive items if everyone should get it? this thinking is completely childish and its sad some of you dont see it and keep shouting on like everyone deserves everything
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"once the pretty hardcore gamers we had testing inferno found it fairly difficult, we then we doubled it" -trolololol jay wilson
It's like waving candy in front of a kid and then give it to a second kid. And then because the second kid got the candy, give him another one for that very reason.
That is pure sadism
And yeah, I waited, participated and prayed. In the end got the opened beta half-weekend and played shit out of it so did not make a a fuss about it anymore. I find this move outrageous.
what is the point of ANY contest that gives out exclusive items if everyone should get it? this thinking is completely childish and its sad some of you dont see it and keep shouting on like everyone deserves everything
well.. contests, where some had to do something to get the prize - yes. random giveaway or fastest fingers first - not really.
what is the point of ANY contest that gives out exclusive items if everyone should get it? this thinking is completely childish and its sad some of you dont see it and keep shouting on like everyone deserves everything
well.. contests, where some had to do something to get the prize - yes. random giveaway or fastest fingers first - not really.
blizzard isn't going to be able to figure out which players were in contests for a key that required skill vs just getting lucky in a random draw contest
For what it's worth, shouldn't the people who played during the open beta weekend also get the banner and Feat of Strength? I mean technically, by playing during that weekend they helped Blizz stress test their servers which will lead to a smooth launch.
How can you honestly sit there and type that? There's hundreds of thousands of people that wanted into the closed beta that didn't get in. No matter how much they tried, regardless of the competitions they participated in, no matter what they could have done, it was out of their hands. They did not have 'direct' control and barely even had a means of influencing the randomization.
Bringing torment and pain to others.
Your damned soul wallowing in your sin.
Perhaps...
it is time to die.
They had control over it just like everyone else. They had the same odds as everyone else. You had to choose to do drawings, captions, cartoons, tweets, sign-up lists, photoshops and all the other myraid of things. Just because they weren't guaranteed a reward doesn't mean they had zero control.
You have to play to win.
But nothing I have said is conflicting anything. Ill break it down some (its late and I have 20 things going on at once here, so I may have just not been putting my ideas down clearly today) Take this post as my -view- on it.
Now with the beta. There are so many people that have been dying to get into the beta. They have been following just as much as the next guy. But there really was no (or how about I say, enough control.. that might be a better way to word it? [Now I know you're going to reply "wheres the line between enough control", I would say this is the line, you're welcome to give other examples])
It was 100% based on luck (keep in mind, tho everything in D3 is based off luck, you can keep going until your luck pays off with enough hard work, unlike with the beta keys). Yes there were contests, but those were also based on luck most of the time. (there were a few "first come first serve kind of ones, but the number of keys in those were so small it was kinda meh);
I mean its all going to come down to opinions in the end of course. But I just feel the beta thing is just out there enough to give it a fair shot to everything. People were already sad they couldnt get in, It just seems like this was kind of a double reward and I see why it bugs them.
(Now this last part there was just a thought, I know you're going to try and quote it saying "im changing the reason its bad again, im not =P)
That's a lottery. The beta in of itself was a lottery, I'll give you that much. However, once the game goes retail, it's no longer a lottery and that philosophy holds very little water. I simply disagree with the idea of in game rewards being handed out via lottery, it seems wrong to me. Once the game launches, people that buy it should be able to obtain the rewards within the game.
That being said, some of the rewards are catered more towards fans than others. Obviously, people that aren't fans of the game won't be able to obtain the class sigils. However, those people are much less likely to even care because, well, they aren't fans. However, the people that are fans of the game and do care about the cosmetic benefits of the game should be able to at least choose whether they go after that benefit or not. Unfortunately, with the beta rewards, that's not longer the case.
What you are saying is not fundamentally incorrect. It's just a different opinion. My opinion is that fans (anybody really) that followed the game should have access to the same rewards without having to rely on blind luck. It's obvious that you disagree and think luck should be rewarded and that's fine I suppose. I just don't agree with it.
There's a difference between having control over obtaining a reward and relying on dumb luck and hoping you get one. I also clearly stated that they could influence their odds (albeit only every so slightly), but ultimately it was still out of their control whether they got in or not.
Bringing torment and pain to others.
Your damned soul wallowing in your sin.
Perhaps...
it is time to die.
Again, not a big deal. Blizz is usally spot on with things like this, but I'm not following their thinking this time.
To Molster:
1. It's hard to make everyone understand what the idea is, even when you speak to them face to face with a cup of tea.
2. People enjoy arguments, fighting for their ideas to be recognized. These make the forums fun to read and disscuss.
To rhorle:
1. Logic has been mentioned many times. I just begin to wonder, which logic do you mean? Logics in philosophy? Premises and conclusions? You know logic is a vague term.
2. I do agree with you to certain extent. In terms of the players who didn't not get into the closed beta should try just settle down, since we can not do much to alter the situation.
3. The decisions were not made by players as long as they love this game, they will have to follow Blizzard's call. Blizzard is the one who made these decisions. Now let's throw away the argument of how rightful or wrongful the decision was; did you mean the players have to take it? Now is it the same as people who bought the lottery? Is there right or wrong in lottery?
4. Payers did get punished by this decision. I.e. the 5 x class sigils are no longer the same value to where they were 1 week ago. Do you agree that if you publishing 6 banners for collection and getting only 5 out of 6 is devaluating / depressing?
Hope this gives some thoughts before we mindlessly throwing walls of text to each other.
"One of the Chosen" Feat of Strength - Leaked Sigil
http://www.diablofans.com/topic/40800-one-of-the-chosen-feat-of-strength-leaked-sigil/
"The Unchosen" -Pain of Admirance- Sigils
http://www.diablofans.com/topic/40826-the-unchosen-pain-of-admirance-sigils/page__p__860849#entry860849
http://i.imgur.com/O7Oeo.png
I received TWO beta keys. Eat it and like it.
Thats what sparked all of this though. It can bug them, that is fine. But a lot of the people in this thread are displaying emotions far beyond "being bugged". When you have people saying blizzard "pissed on them" and wishing others cancer and that sentiment isn't just a few (even if those exact wordings are) people but a whole bunch.
I'm bugged about things all the time. But i'm not going to get upset about it or wish ill to people over it. I missed out, I missed out. A reward wouldn't feel special if it was something everyone could get. Nor would it make sense as a limited reward if anyone could get it. Would CE wings be special if anyone in the game could buy it off a vendor?
Not everyone deserves a reward just because they are a fan. That is what the Mark of Valor promotion was for. A reward for fans of the game. They also decided to award a sigil for Beta testers people that were supposed to spend the length of the beta shaping the game into something both developers and fans will like.
Just as I'm sure they will award one for Blizzcon and likely other Marketting events like the Mt.dew gamer fuel. They could even have world events to do X during that week to unlock a Sigil. The possibilites are endless. But if you only limit the system to everyone has to get a reward unless they can control everything then it will always be a lack luster system.
If RNG reward a sigil for Beta is bad, then RNG leading to rewarding a sigil is equally bad. Because at the base of it is the same concept. It doesn't matter if one happens post-retail, in-game, or anywhere else. Its all RNG offering a reward.
The sigil's were always intended to have a period of time where you could gain all of them again. However no I don't think its punishing that I wouldn't have all Sigils. Because I didn't get all Sigils. I don't have any sense of entitlement to anything about the game just because I like the game and have been waiting to play it for years. It doesn't matter how things are distributed.
It makes it all the better for when I do eventually get said rare sigil or another unique reward when its my turn to win. If everyone has it or should have it then what is the point of not making it a base sigil of the game?
Agreed this is my sentiment as well.
I understand what you saying and I am with you on this, no matter how many sigil I missed out, I still want to play and enjoy the game. The game will bring me more joy than doing many other things and that is what going to matter to me.
I might didn't get exactly what group of people you and Molster's posts were referring to? Were the discussions aimed to ourselves or were they refering to the player base? I may not made myself clear on the matter, sorry for the confusion, where I was not refering to you nor me. Now think about it for other people, who do care about these sigils and do value them highly for whatever purpose that we do not understand. Some of Molster's points could make sense?
Hey guys don't get me wrong I think the reward for being in closed beta was more then enough. Even though this is just a feat of strength I am a darn collector. I love Diablo so much I collect everything even novels, books, strat guides that I will never read but got it for the 80 pages of armor and etc.
Another big big thing is trying to get everything possible in my character profile page. This includes Feat of Strength and for people who played World of Warcraft I think you will admit Feat of Strength actually had a different feeling then how Blizzard is brushing it off as.
Not only that WoW had 1000's and 1000's and 1000's of achievements and they were not linked from char to char and you did not feel as special and etc but with Diablo you do and I think that really makes a big difference.
So for someone who likes to get everything possible of course fairly work for it this is like cutting one my fingers off and damn I would trade one right now for a darn FoS.
That is pure sadism
And yeah, I waited, participated and prayed. In the end got the opened beta half-weekend and played shit out of it so did not make a a fuss about it anymore. I find this move outrageous.
well.. contests, where some had to do something to get the prize - yes. random giveaway or fastest fingers first - not really.
blizzard isn't going to be able to figure out which players were in contests for a key that required skill vs just getting lucky in a random draw contest
http://i.imgur.com/O7Oeo.png
I received TWO beta keys. Eat it and like it.