Ok, so I've just had a rather long conversaton with someone I used to play games with. Clearly not D2 lol but others. He was a hardcore D2 pvp believer and I just wanted to try to understand what upset him about arenas and what he felt like he was losing in D3. Basically I didn't even go into the convo to talk to him about it but he led the convo there. Anyway I figured I would post the conversation here for anyone that might be interested in reading such a thing, it takes a very similar path to the ones that start here unfortunately. *And if I'm not mistaken it ends with him blocking me on steam because for some reason he got that upset.* (EDIT: Either wasn't bloced, or not blocked anymore Just seemed like a suspcious time to log off I guess.) Unfortunate, but for the greater good of pvp and pvm mutual understanding...
Disclaimer: If you don't want to read it... Don't. I don't intend to argue these points on the forums, this was just a random conversation with a friend, discuss amongst yourselves if you'd like but try to keep the flaming to a minimum, I think we did pretty good in the convo
Disclaimer II: LONG convo in the spoiler... You were warned...
Edit: Also sidenote, NektelMP is not my steam name or anything close to it
Friday, April 20, 2012
12:29 AM - NektelMP: D3 open beta weekend starts tomorrow
12:29 AM - Friend: ya i got in the beta a long time ago
12:29 AM - Friend: game is bad
12:29 AM - Friend: =(
12:30 AM - NektelMP: Meh, I've played a little, didn't seem that bad What don't you like?
12:31 AM - Friend: lol the game no pvp 4 players rmah retardedly ez game itself moonphysics
12:31 AM - Friend: Que to join games
12:31 AM - Friend: no open world pvp
12:31 AM - Friend: most of the game itself
12:31 AM - NektelMP: Ah, see I'm not much for pvp, and EVERY Diablo game was easy for the first 13 levels of normal lol
12:31 AM - NektelMP: I agree the lack of a game list sucks though
12:32 AM - Friend: eh i guess but the thing is Blizzard North made D1 and D2 Blizzard made D3 and it wont be any where near as good
12:32 AM - NektelMP: But you're still buying it <_< Right?
12:32 AM - Friend: lol no
12:33 AM - Friend: Torchlight 2 will be better
12:33 AM - Friend: Lineage eteranal will be better
12:33 AM - NektelMP: The hell it will, Torchligh was fun... For 15 minutes
12:33 AM - Friend: eh gotta get past the graphix and look at the game itself plus torchlight 2 will be multi player so that will make it way better
12:34 AM - NektelMP: I was looking at the game play lol, and I kinda like the cartoony look of TL but the gameplay was Diablo - good loot - fun skills
12:35 AM - Friend: well ya the ppl who made D2 and D1 are making torchlight
12:35 AM - Friend: Blizzard North is Runic games
12:35 AM - Friend: Most of them anyway
12:35 AM - Friend: which is why it is a better game in itself
12:35 AM - NektelMP: They are, but they've been on failboat after failboat for a while not, hellgate, mythos
12:35 AM - NektelMP: now*
12:36 AM - NektelMP: Meh, I think Diablo will be more fun than you think, and you'll be back
12:37 AM - Friend: na Hellgate was ok but before its time i mean none of their other games had a good publisher behind them
12:37 AM - Friend: D3 will be fun for 1 play through sure
12:37 AM - Friend: but after that the game will be boring
12:37 AM - Friend: If you ever played Darkspore or Dungeon Siege 3
12:37 AM - Friend: u can see the similarirties between them
12:37 AM - NektelMP: Major thing that hurts replayability from what I saw in beta was the lack of overworld randomization :\
12:38 AM - Friend: but none of those games did any good
12:38 AM - Friend: well thats ANOTHER thing i dont like
12:38 AM - Friend: the game is linear
12:38 AM - NektelMP: Well its garunteed to do good, its already presold millions, just depends on wether it can keep people
12:38 AM - NektelMP: Linear I disagree with, all diablos were linear
12:39 AM - NektelMP: A1 first square area -> second squar area -> third square area
12:39 AM - NektelMP: A1 repeat ->....
12:39 AM - NektelMP: A2*
12:39 AM - Friend: exactly
12:39 AM - Friend: but d3 u just have a path to follow
12:39 AM - Friend: now ofc in the other ones their was a path
12:39 AM - Friend: but it wasnt like u had 2 follow it
12:40 AM - Friend: in the beginning waypoints sure
12:40 AM - Friend: after that
12:40 AM - NektelMP: Give me an example of somewhere in D2 that you didn't follow a path?
12:41 AM - Friend: your talking about a general direction ofc your goin the same way
12:41 AM - Friend: but in D3 its like go this way here u go do it
12:41 AM - NektelMP: I think we're saying the same thing but thinking about it differently, the problem I see is that area entrances and exits are static, in D2 atleast those moved, in D3 start at bottom left, exit at top riht
12:41 AM - Friend: d2 think about like Act 2
12:41 AM - Friend: in the desert
12:42 AM - Friend: you just ran around till u found stuff
12:42 AM - Friend: no path
12:42 AM - NektelMP: Most everything you had to find was either a) on the edge, an exit to the next area or just an entrance, which moved, but you still basically had to go from point a to b to c to d in a predictable way
12:43 AM - NektelMP: But yeah we're saying the same thing as far as that goes, the exits and entraces don't move, which is less interesting, but I don't see it being that huge
12:44 AM - NektelMP: Honestly I can't say that I had fun running throug the A2 desert looking for a tomb entrance when I'd done it 200 times before lol
12:44 AM - Friend: true i mean once u beat the game u skipped it all
12:44 AM - Friend: another thing this game will leave no room for creativity
12:45 AM - Friend: just gonna play the game and thats it
12:45 AM - Friend: i didnt play ladder on D2 i play NL and their was just more to do
12:45 AM - Friend: I mean we didnt even actually play the game most of the time
12:45 AM - Friend: it was pvp are lvling new guys
12:45 AM - Friend: and i mean like gubers not goin through the game
12:46 AM - NektelMP: Ah I hated the D2 pvp, specially hostility, which is why I never played hardcore lol
12:47 AM - NektelMP: Also always played Ladder <_< I was an item/runeword grinder, and when my characters went non ladder and couldn't find/make the best stuff anymore I lost interest
12:47 AM - Friend: When ppl say that it just doesnt make any since to me
12:48 AM - Friend: See this is where ppl dont understand things
12:48 AM - Friend: D2 = PVP now that being said their were a bunch of ppl like u who just farmed and stuff
12:48 AM - Friend: but if it was JUST you guys the game would nvr have lasted as long as it is
12:48 AM - NektelMP: As far as creativity, D2 had very little, if you wanted to get the best gear and play in hell, you couldn't just go putting points in fun skills, you had to research your build, put points in very specific order, have very specific gear, and thus there was 5mil whirlwind barbs 25mil hammerdins and 15 mil meteorb sorcs
12:49 AM - Friend: Their is no point in playing the game for items and then not use them for anything
12:49 AM - NektelMP: Ah but the point is mostly in the farming
12:49 AM - Friend: their is no endgame in D3 like WoW or something their isnt any raids
12:49 AM - NektelMP: Pvp is not the sustaining factor of D2... People like to think it is if they did it
12:50 AM - NektelMP: But item grinding is. Its what other ARPGs try to emulate, its the gamer treat system
12:50 AM - Friend: ya but it was bro Ppl who played ladder dont understand that
12:50 AM - Friend: you would see if you played Darkspore or Dungeon siege 3
12:50 AM - Friend: just pve for items and see how long it takes for you to quit
12:51 AM - NektelMP: I've played D2 most every year since its release Never PVPing
12:51 AM - NektelMP: And have many friends that join me
12:51 AM - NektelMP: Just because other games offer inferior clones of the gameplay doesn't mean Diablo can't do it
12:52 AM - Friend: like i said man a small portion of the population did ladder i mean think what happen to your chars after ladder reset
12:52 AM - Friend: went NL on NL it was All PVP
12:52 AM - Friend: And more ppl played NL then Ladder
12:52 AM - NektelMP: So your theory is that D3 will fail after how long?
12:53 AM - Friend: it wont FAIL like you think im sayin because blizzard fanboys will keep it going
12:53 AM - Friend: most people blindly follow blizzard in everything they do
12:53 AM - NektelMP: Well you said they won't, because PvM won't sustain it
12:53 AM - Friend: i mean thats proven with people who play wow still
12:53 AM - NektelMP: WoW is played because there hasn't been much of a viable challenger in the MMO market
12:53 AM - NektelMP: Still isn't really
12:53 AM - Friend: What im saying it will be a Failure in standards compared to the D2
12:54 AM - NektelMP: Star Wars took its shot, but they don't have enough to do
12:54 AM - Friend: No their are many goood mmo's but most ppl say eh wow is better and dont play them
12:54 AM - Friend: only ppl give AAA titles a chance
12:54 AM - Friend: then say this is just wow but looks diff
12:55 AM - Friend: Online games die cause of small playerbases
12:55 AM - Friend: and the small playerbases dont come from them being bad games it comes from ppl just staying in WoW and other games that are Ez or they dont wanna try anything
12:55 AM - Friend: Plenty of great games that dont make it cause ppl are just well ppl its what they do
12:55 AM - NektelMP: I was never a fan of WoW, my favorite MMO was the failed Vanguard, which was superior in every way.... Except that they didn't fix their bugs, and they didn't cater to the changing MMO consumer, part of the reason I liked it, it was still challenging, but that made it fail, and it made it not a viable competitor
12:57 AM - Friend: but see their are a bunch of games like that which could become better but most ppl say well im gonna play D3 cause its D3 and ya thats it
12:57 AM - NektelMP: The fact of D2s sustainability really comes down to botters, botters keep the lights on and pay the bills, when blizz can ban thousands of accounts and have the botters buy thousands of new copies its a win win for them
12:58 AM - NektelMP: I'm going to play D3 because I need my gamer treat pellet of kill a monster hope for a shiny lol
12:58 AM - NektelMP: Major area that TL failed in, I hardly cared what dropped when I killed stuff
1:00 AM - Friend: true and u will fill the same in D3 and its simply because in D2 when u farmed for items you used them for something
1:00 AM - Friend: there was a demand
1:00 AM - Friend: ppl used it for pvp
1:00 AM - Friend: TL ofc it doesnt matter
1:00 AM - Friend: its single player and ur items dont matter as long as u win the game
1:00 AM - Friend: D3 farm items just so u can farm more items?
1:00 AM - Friend: honestly u think that is a good theory for a game?
1:01 AM - NektelMP: Nah, I used it for more PVM, kill x monsters in y time, find better item, kill x monsters in y-z time, find better item, kill x monsters in y -2z time
1:01 AM - NektelMP: Yeah lol
1:01 AM - NektelMP: TL counted on that theory, they didn't expect people to stop playing when they beat the last boss
1:01 AM - NektelMP: Remember the infinite dungeon?
1:03 AM - NektelMP: Hell thats what most RPGs that aren't PVP focused count on, I remember taking like 120 hours or so in FFVII to complete every side quest, kill every extra weapon boss and cast knights of the round 12 times in a row or whatever it was
1:03 AM - NektelMP: Why? Don't know, could have beaten the game in probably less than half the time
1:03 AM - NektelMP: Spent the time to get stronger and stronger because that was the fun part of the game
1:05 AM - Friend: see what are u getting stronger for you have no goal for you that might be fun and i know other people like that
1:06 AM - Friend: but most ppl arnt gonna do that
1:06 AM - Friend: Thats just like TL1
1:06 AM - Friend: play the game over and over to get stronger
1:06 AM - Friend: but like u said TL was boring
1:06 AM - Friend: no point to it once u beat it once or twice
1:07 AM - NektelMP: Well technically theres no point to play ANY game, we give them points, and my point is just to make the strongest character possible, its fun for me to find the best items, even if I don't use them, its NOT fun for me to pvp, even if I knew I'd win every time, THAT has absolutely no point as far as I can tell
1:08 AM - NektelMP: So you beat the other guy and you get....? Nothing
1:08 AM - NektelMP: No little gamer treat drops, no new content, basically all I could figure is that its self affirmation, but why?
1:09 AM - Friend: well lets think beat a monster that u know whats gonna happen every time u fight him or Go against other people in a situation that will always be different
1:09 AM - Friend: u do not konw you will win every time
1:09 AM - Friend: but u do know u will win every time vs the computer
1:10 AM - Friend: its the computer its the same thing
1:10 AM - Friend: players are random your point was backwards
1:11 AM - NektelMP: Nope my point wasn't random fighting at all, my point was the ending, when I beat that boss in D2 I had no idea what was going to drop, what might make my character better, what might make me save it and make another character to use it
1:11 AM - NektelMP: Wether you win or lose in pvp.... Nothing changes
1:11 AM - NektelMP: You don't get anything new
1:12 AM - Friend: its not about geting new things in PVP your right but what are you getting the new items for in D2
1:12 AM - NektelMP: When you pvp someone a) You lose You win, afterwards you can lather rinse repeat or, go find someone else and lather rinse repeat, not to mention that your skills and gear locked you into one build, so you were going to be fighting in pvp the same way in general every time, the fun really wasn't in the fighting
1:13 AM - NektelMP: Maybe the next build you want to make, no one just loads up and empty D2 account and says "My first char will be a SMITER!".... The hell it will if you aren't buying with cash or have a farming character
1:14 AM - Friend: well this is the view most of the people on D3 forums because they all played ladder but the majority of the D2 population isnt on those forums because most ppl played D2 NL and it was about PVP you MF'd till you got some good stuff to trade with until later in the games timeline when ppl just duped and traded on D2JSP
1:15 AM - Friend: which is another proof of how the game was about PVP not ladder or w/e
1:15 AM - Friend: D2jsp all about trading items for FG or other items for PVP
1:15 AM - NektelMP: ALL the people that post on the forums were ladder and non pvp?... I thought you said the majority of people didn't play ladder and it was mostly PvP? By your reasoning there should be GINORMOUS outcry from the majority of people that still play diablo?
1:16 AM - Friend: There was when the D3 site first came up and for a while
1:16 AM - Friend: it was like that i was all over the d3 forums
1:16 AM - NektelMP: It was all over the forums from a very small amount of people :\
1:17 AM - Friend: but why would i keep posting stuff if ppl like you are gonna keep posting over and over saying No pvp is boring
1:17 AM - Friend: eventually it got boring
1:17 AM - NektelMP: Seriously now I've been watching this stuff since it was announced and forums went up, I live on the fan forums for hours out of the day
1:17 AM - Friend: Actually it was a huge thing on D3 forums and stuff still pops up
1:17 AM - NektelMP: Why would people like me keep posting stuff if people like you are the marjority and all complaining?
1:17 AM - Friend: but Bliz fanboys just Flame all threads
1:18 AM - Friend: so it gets pointless
1:18 AM - NektelMP: Pvp players were never the majority on any forum :\ Of old diablo players and/or new
1:19 AM - NektelMP: I don't know, honestly I've argued for more pvp, but I understand the reasons against it
1:19 AM - NektelMP: I personally support the idea of duel/hostility in private games only
1:20 AM - NektelMP: That way people could do it with their friends and not force it on anyone
1:20 AM - NektelMP: But the reasoning behind not doing that is A) It completely undermines their plans for arenas and If you give an inch they bitch for the mile lol
1:23 AM - Friend: http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/4496510979 1:23 AM - Friend: this is what im talking about its pointless to post on d3 forums 1:23 AM - NektelMP: Hell in D2 the majority of people that bought the game never even made a Bnet account if I remember correctly 1:23 AM - Friend: or on any blizz forum 1:24 AM - Friend: fanboys because Blizz is the best company ever and even though everyon complains about their games they are still playing them 1:24 AM - Friend: Old blizz was tight 1:24 AM - Friend: D2 Early WoW 1:24 AM - Friend: Warcraft 2 1:24 AM - Friend: SC1 1:25 AM - NektelMP: Soooo you linked me to a QQ thread about him not getting into beta even though hes a fan and not liking mods? 1:26 AM - Friend: no i linked u to a thread about someone dissagreeing with blizz 1:26 AM - Friend: and getting buried because of it 1:27 AM - NektelMP: Honestly I don't see the problem, I wouldn't see a problem if it had been deleted, its a useless not constructive in any way QQ thread, hes not offering advice, or informing anyone of anything other than "I don't like you and I'm leaving" 1:27 AM - NektelMP: I think thats rediculous, especially during a beta 1:27 AM - NektelMP: Now, do I think trolling and flaming it is ok? No, but thats another point 1:28 AM - Friend: But do this play Darkspore for as long as you can and if you like it then good for you cause it is a great game graphics are probably better then D3 even though its a different style but the game itself is the same concept and Darkspore failed terribly because what they offered is all that D3 is offereing 1:28 AM - Friend: they are different games but generally they are the same 1:29 AM - NektelMP: I probably won't like it, but I doubt its offering what D3 is, every ARPG under the sun claims to be the same as D3 1:29 AM - NektelMP: On a very basic level, they are the same, hell Titans Quest was practically the same game in many ways 1:29 AM - Friend: no they dont, and this is exactly what d3 is 1:29 AM - NektelMP: Skill tree, set items, legendary items, and it sucked 1:29 AM - Friend: Que up in matchmaking for a game 1:30 AM - Friend: PVP arena 1:30 AM - Friend: 4 players in a game 1:30 AM - Friend: and the game was boring 1:30 AM - Friend: it wasnt a bad game itself 1:30 AM - NektelMP: How you join a game, and ior pvp or how mnay people in a game have nothing to do what what I remember liking about D2 1:30 AM - Friend: but no incentive to play 1:31 AM - Friend: the thing is you have offer both 1:31 AM - Friend: and D3 is saying Just kill monster over and over dont worry about anything else 1:32 AM - NektelMP: So tell me whats your beef with arenas? 1:32 AM - NektelMP: Because they aren't saying NO PVP 1:32 AM - Friend: Nothing wrong with arenas but it wont be anywhere near as fun as open world pvp was 1:33 AM - Friend: Just like in WoW arenas where like super Kool for a bit then it was like eh 1:33 AM - NektelMP: Most of the pvp that I remember took place in the arbitrary location of A1 outside of town in D2 right? So whats the difference if its that or an arena? 1:33 AM - Friend: Diablo pvp shouldnt be confined 1:33 AM - NektelMP: But like I just said... It generally was 1:33 AM - NektelMP: Your problem is that an arena is smaller? 1:34 AM - NektelMP: Its not like you started pvp with someone and then took a random way point somewhere and hid in a corner 1:35 AM - Friend: im not saying Down with arenas even though i dont care about them one way or another 1:35 AM - Friend: im saying they need to have both 1:35 AM - NektelMP: Well I just want to understand why the need for both? What do you lost by doing pvp in an arena that you did in d2? Besides open world greifing 1:35 AM - Friend: More options which is what everyone wants 1:36 AM - Friend: and plz ppl who complain about hostile pk'ing and stuff are bitches 1:36 AM - Friend: make a private game 1:36 AM - Friend: but then again 1:37 AM - Friend: in D3 all they have to do is make an option 1:37 AM - NektelMP: So thats what you're upset about not being able to do 1:37 AM - NektelMP: ? 1:37 AM - Friend: if someone hostiles you say either u accept it or not 1:37 AM - Friend: then if u say no u got no problem 1:37 AM - Friend: if u say yes then ok u wanna fight them 1:37 AM - Friend: pretty simple 1:37 AM - NektelMP: Wouldn't work 1:37 AM - Friend: ya it kinda would 1:37 AM - Friend: i come in and hostile u 1:37 AM - Friend: u say no 1:38 AM - Friend: what just happend 1:38 AM - Friend: ? 1:38 AM - Friend: no hostile 1:38 AM - NektelMP: A) People would spam the challenges every player in game increases PvM dificulty, thus people trolling of PVP in PvM games fucks with other peoples ability to continue to play their game 1:38 AM - Friend: obv they wouldnt have it so u can spam it 1:38 AM - Friend: that wouldnt make since 1:38 AM - Friend: and if u dont want ppl to make it harder make it PRIVATE 1:39 AM - Friend: or just get more expierence/better loot 1:39 AM - Friend: not a big problem their 1:39 AM - NektelMP: So people who want to play the game with peple they don't know don't get to because you want that feature added? 1:39 AM - Friend: no because when u make a game u can have a option to either enable pvp or not 1:39 AM - Friend: solved 1:40 AM - Friend: but u cant make games cause u are que'ing for them 1:40 AM - NektelMP: Sigh, well back to my question, you're saying you don't have options in D3 that were in D2 as far as pvp, I 1:40 AM - NektelMP: 'm asking specifically what you don't have te ability to do anymore 1:41 AM - NektelMP: Btw, there is going to be a way to enable pvp or not when you create the game.... Its called arenas lol 1:42 AM - Friend: no arenas is not enabling pvp while ur in a game 1:42 AM - Friend: arenas is que'ing and joining an arena 1:42 AM - NektelMP: Rather than queuing and justing a pvm game so you can pvp?... 1:42 AM - Friend: enable pvp is in a game and fighting someone anywhere 1:42 AM - NektelMP: joining* 1:42 AM - NektelMP: So your major problem is that you might have to spend the 30-40 seconds leaving a game and making a new one? 1:44 AM - NektelMP: See this is what bothers me, theres nothing that a pvp player can say is lost, besides the inconvenience of having to join a pvp game setup to pvp... 1:44 AM - NektelMP: You wouldn't expect me to get in LoL and bitch that people need to leave me alone while I kill the creeps cause I want to PvM in the PvP game right? 1:46 AM - Friend: No that is not my major problem, my majore problem is the most of the game itself. Another Major problem is that ppl like you are trying so hard to argue the game will be great because you can kill monsters over and over. PvP is a part of Diablo and D3 is taking it out and saying here we will give you arenas so we dont have to worry about it keep the game seperate the game is not meant to be like that 1:46 AM - Friend: you should be able to do everything in your game 1:46 AM - Friend: D2 was like a Mini mmo but ofc it wasnt an mmo 1:47 AM - Friend: you had a very large world 1:47 AM - Friend: where you could do anything 1:47 AM - Friend: D3 is just you follow this script then do it over and over and enjoy it 1:47 AM - NektelMP: So you think that when blizzard created the D1 and D2 classes they made the skill trees with respect to pvp? Thats nonsense. PvP has always been an 'added feature' and the game was made for PvM... To argue differently is silly 1:48 AM - Friend: indeed but pvp worked and it worked in both of those games 1:48 AM - NektelMP: And it will work in D3 1:48 AM - Friend: u can say its silly but they worked for a reason 1:48 AM - Friend: they didnt get lucky when they made both of those games 1:48 AM - Friend: it worked for a reason 1:48 AM - Friend: and the ppl behind this new diablo dont have a clue what that reason is Friend is now Offline. Friend is currently offline, message cannot be sent.
Your friend sounds like the majority of PvP focused posters here. It seems that because they cannot kill people that do not want to be killed, the game is bad. It is exactly as you said, the majority of PvP in Diablo 2 was standing outside town in Act 1 and killing each other. There weren't really any rules at all, and it was pretty much a FFA. I don't really see how that'd be any different then a FFA option for Arena (which is something I could get behind).
The only thing I can honestly say I feel we are losing in Diablo 3 from Diablo 2 is PvP griefing by forcing players to PvP when they don't want to...and honestly that is a good thing.
really why do people voice opinions on things they clearly have no idea about.
Woah woah woah! That type of mentality where PvP actually matters to anyone in Diablo is not allowed here buddy. We are the minority and we should shut up and listen to our bigger smarter brothers in the PvM section. They know best.
really why do people voice opinions on things they clearly have no idea about.
Oooh... a 1v1 ladder on a site that doesn't even show up as a diablo fansite in a search. Definitely representative of the majority of PvP. Oh and its 10~ years after the launch of D2, making quite after the prime of the game. You totally know what you're talking about...right...
Sorry, but no...I played Diablo 2 heavily during its prime and kept up on it on and off until a year or so ago. The MAJORITY of PvP was done outside town in Act 1 and DID consist primarily of people just sitting there killing anyone that comes out. Legitimate duels were generally done in smaller circles during the prime of Diablo 2. I'm not willing to dig through 500~ pages of forum posts to find out, but looking at the last few pages it doesn't look like that ladder has more then 50 players...if that. So I have no idea how you think that represents any kind of MAJORITY.
on a site that doesn't even show up as a diablo fansite in a search.
Stopped reading here.
Instead, how about google "Diablo fansite" yourself. Sorry, but D2JSP isn't a site that a majority of players looking for Diablo information would even see. As I said in my post as well, that ladder itself doesn't seem to have more then 50 members...so it hardly represents any kind of majority.
really why do people voice opinions on things they clearly have no idea about.
Woah woah woah! That type of mentality where PvP actually matters to anyone in Diablo is not allowed here buddy. We are the minority and we should shut up and listen to our bigger smarter brothers in the PvM section. They know best.
really why do people voice opinions on things they clearly have no idea about.
Oooh... a 1v1 ladder on a site that doesn't even show up as a diablo fansite in a search. Definitely representative of the majority of PvP. Oh and its 10~ years after the launch of D2, making quite after the prime of the game. You totally know what you're talking about...right...
Sorry, but no...I played Diablo 2 heavily during its prime and kept up on it on and off until a year or so ago. The MAJORITY of PvP was done outside town in Act 1 and DID consist primarily of people just sitting there killing anyone that comes out. Legitimate duels were generally done in smaller circles during the prime of Diablo 2. I'm not willing to dig through 500~ pages of forum posts to find out, but looking at the last few pages it doesn't look like that ladder has more then 50 players...if that. So I have no idea how you think that represents any kind of MAJORITY.
So you a person who has gone out of his way NUMEROUS time to talk bad about D2 PvP and stated NUMEROUS times that they didn't partake in D2 PvP and were there for the PvM, know all about the majority of PvP information..?
So tell me....how many "Players vs Monsters" threads and posts are there..? How many PvP post now? Also take note of what you just said "~10 years" after release...10 YEARS! It is still running to this day. The majority of the PvP players like me and Koda and well everyone else that was good are gone, and yet they still managed to get MULTIPLE ladders up and running and filled with 50 people. Why would you make a ladder with more then 50 people also? I have ran those ladders and I capped them out at 10, anything more was a huge time consumption as they can rapidly change.
Just do yourself a favor, stick to talking about Blizzards views, something you seem to know. Stay out of talking about PvP in D2 and stop trying to tell us what the majority did while you were getting help killing Baal.
So you a person who has gone out of his way NUMEROUS time to talk bad about D2 PvP and stated NUMEROUS times that they didn't partake in D2 PvP and were there for the PvM, know all about the majority of PvP information..?
So tell me....how many "Players vs Monsters" threads and posts are there..? How many PvP post now? Also take note of what you just said "~10 years" after release...10 YEARS! It is still running to this day. The majority of the PvP players like me and Koda and well everyone else that was good are gone, and yet they still managed to get MULTIPLE ladders up and running and filled with 50 people. Why would you make a ladder with more then 50 people also? I have ran those ladders and I capped them out at 10, anything more was a huge time consumption as they can rapidly change.
Just do yourself a favor, stick to talking about Blizzards views, something you seem to know. Stay out of talking about PvP in D2 and stop trying to tell us what the majority did while you were getting help killing Baal.
Wow, resorting to insults yet again...way to prove your point. I've played D2 PvP. Specifically I PvP'd in Diablo 2 during its prime. Judging anything related to D2 by how its done now is absolutely stupid. Diablo 2 is way past its prime and many of the players (both PvM and PvP) have left for other games. During D2's prime is what matters as its more representative of the MAJORITY and the MAJORITY of PvP was done exactly how I stated.
In all honestly I think you've played D2 so long that you've become blinded to the fact that the world moved on. There are better games out now, with better ways of doing things. Hostility is a bad system as the only people it really benefits is griefers. Sure there are some legit uses but the majority of the time it will just be used for griefing (and that's even what you want it for). You aren't a majority at all.
Its evident by this forum and the fact that there aren't even enough PvP players posting in a PvP forum on the most popular Diablo 3 fansite to back you up. The reality is, you're wrong. The majority of the Diablo 3 community likes the new system and is glad that hostility is dead. They want dueling moved to Arenas so that they don't have to worry about people like yourself acting like a child and spamming them with duel requests. They want to enjoy the content be it PvM or PvP and Blizzard is giving them what they want.
Sure, you may be some hotshot player from D2 now.. but D2 is a shadow of what it was during its prime and those that still play it hardly represent a majority of the new community that is D3.
Watch out adon it's big brother PvM coming to tell you what diablo is and how to play it. Diablo deserves darker pastures.
Wow, awesome to see that you went from a reasonable player attempting to use logic to sinking to Adon's level and using insults instead. Seems to be the last resort of most every PvP focused player here. I give logical reasons why you guys are wrong and you guys resort to petty insults. How can you possibly expect to be taken seriously?
ecutruin. D2JSP dates back to 2003, it's the core of D2's economy and pretty much everything else too. obviously at release people couldn't start with writing pages of rules right away that make PvP more enjoyable, but the game evolved and 10 years later there are still SEVERAL ladders running at the same time. also not everyone signed up to participate in ladders, so that is nowhere near the whole PvP community... there are a lot more PvP games, where you play "good mannered" duels (playing by the rules) simply to practice, get better, to have a chance on ladders or simply for fun.
Also PvP players spend lots of their time doing PvM too, to get their gear for PvP before going anywhere near a PvP ladder...
Guess what. People gearing up for PvP, doing duels and people trying to reach lvl99 kept the game alive for this long, NOT the casual folk, who beat nightmare or hell, and maybe did some more runs for better loot...
Lots of people won't farm for months just for the sake of having better gear (when you can already clear inferno anyway), they want to utilize that gear to play against others with it...
I know full well about D2JSP. The reality is though that it doesn't come up in a search for "diablo fansite" or even just "diablo". This means that anyone looking for information about Diablo games isn't going to find D2JSP. It also means that the majority of the players in the CURRENT diablo community probably aren't regulars there. Hell, the majority of the D3 community probably don't still play D2 at all.
Just because a minority of people on a trading site for a game far past it's prime manage to make player-run ladders doesn't mean they represent ANY kind of majority as far as the community as a whole goes. It also doesn't represent how PvP was run during the game's prime either.
Arena gives a much more integrated and organized means to PvP. It maintains a casual environment as the focus of the game is co-op. Instead of getting a slapped on system that forces players to make up rules, this one has set rules, varied game~modes, and even matchmaking. It is vastly superior to D2/D1's PvP.
No more PvP griefing? Good riddance. Also big Q fucking Q from your friend. Summary: Boohoo.. Diablo 3 wasn't made by blizzard north it can't be good now *sniff sniff* I need world pvp for griefing and I rather spend 1 hour looking for victims than queuing up for a game which takes 10 seconds. Arena isn't fun because I am a bad player and I will lose QQQQQQQQQQ
Aw you get your feelers hurt little buddy?
While world PvP would be amazing and actually true to the Diablo series, it isn't required and we can live with that. We can deal with having to make 3 games just to duel once, what we can't deal with is Blizzard tying our hands and giving us actually less PvP content then D2. Yes we have an arena! Whoopty-do!. Thus far we are locked into 3v3 and 4v4 which is pathetic in standards to D2.
Also there will be plenty of Baal runners in the PvP que for the arena, so I don't think any PvP'er is going to have a hard time "ranking" up.
Also Ecutruin how did I insult you? Because I stated the truth that you have no real business discussing PvP at high level? That you are by heart and nature a Baal runner and not a PvP'er? Does the truth offend you sir? Does it hurt inside to know my PvP based characters could PvM just as well if not better then your PvM characters? What is it?
Watch out adon it's big brother PvM coming to tell you what diablo is and how to play it. Diablo deserves darker pastures.
Wow, awesome to see that you went from a reasonable player attempting to use logic to sinking to Adon's level and using insults instead. Seems to be the last resort of most every PvP focused player here. I give logical reasons why you guys are wrong and you guys resort to petty insults. How can you possibly expect to be taken seriously?
While world PvP would be amazing and actually true to the Diablo series, it isn't required and we can live with that. We can deal with having to make 3 games just to duel once, what we can't deal with is Blizzard tying our hands and giving us actually less PvP content then D2. Yes we have an arena! Whoopty-do!. Thus far we are locked into 3v3 and 4v4 which is pathetic in standards to D2.
Also there will be plenty of Baal runners in the PvP que for the arena, so I don't think any PvP'er is going to have a hard time "ranking" up.
Also Ecutruin how did I insult you? Because I stated the truth that you have no real business discussing PvP at high level? That you are by heart and nature a Baal runner and not a PvP'er? Does the truth offend you sir? Does it hurt inside to know my PvP based characters could PvM just as well if not better then your PvM characters? What is it?
Lmao, you continue to belittle others as part of your reasoning. Sorry man but it doesn't matter if I played as much PvP as you did. What matters is that I have interest in PvP. I have just as much right to discuss PvP topics as you do. You need to realize that your style of PvP is gone in Diablo 3. PvP in Diablo 3 is designed specifically with people like myself in mind. Therefore I probably even have more right to comment on the issues then you do.
While world PvP would be amazing and actually true to the Diablo series, it isn't required and we can live with that. We can deal with having to make 3 games just to duel once, what we can't deal with is Blizzard tying our hands and giving us actually less PvP content then D2. Yes we have an arena! Whoopty-do!. Thus far we are locked into 3v3 and 4v4 which is pathetic in standards to D2.
Also there will be plenty of Baal runners in the PvP que for the arena, so I don't think any PvP'er is going to have a hard time "ranking" up.
Also Ecutruin how did I insult you? Because I stated the truth that you have no real business discussing PvP at high level? That you are by heart and nature a Baal runner and not a PvP'er? Does the truth offend you sir? Does it hurt inside to know my PvP based characters could PvM just as well if not better then your PvM characters? What is it?
Lmao, you continue to belittle others as part of your reasoning. Sorry man but it doesn't matter if I played as much PvP as you did. What matters is that I have interest in PvP. I have just as much right to discuss PvP topics as you do. You need to realize that your style of PvP is gone in Diablo 3. PvP in Diablo 3 is designed specifically with people like myself in mind. Therefore I probably even have more right to comment on the issues then you do.
That is like me saying I have more authority to speak on PvM then you do. In the end you have an opinion and you are very welcome to it, doesn't mean you gotta sit here and lurk in the PvP forums and try and belittle the previous PvP when you clearly don't have any clue about how it played or what the community did. If anything you are belittling me and every other real PvP'er out there with your ignorance.
Also don't get offended when I call you a baal runner, cause it is the truth. You run baal and MF me gear, I buy said gear, and do what I please with it without wasting my time MFing for it, everyone wins. Again we arn't asking for anything that hurts PvM, arn't asking for anything that costs a ton of resources, and yet you find a way to bitch and moan ha.
That is like me saying I have more authority to speak on PvM then you do. In the end you have an opinion and you are very welcome to it, doesn't mean you gotta sit here and lurk in the PvP forums and try and belittle the previous PvP when you clearly don't have any clue about how it played or what the community did. If anything you are belittling me and every other real PvP'er out there with your ignorance.
Also don't get offended when I call you a baal runner, cause it is the truth. You run baal and MF me gear, I buy said gear, and do what I please with it without wasting my time MFing for it, everyone wins. Again we arn't asking for anything that hurts PvM, arn't asking for anything that costs a ton of resources, and yet you find a way to bitch and moan ha.
Me bitching and moaning? O.o; You're the one trying to shove outdated game mechanics into a brand new game. Just because you liked the way things worked in PvP for Diablo 2 doesn't mean the majority of us did. I did PvP in Diablo 2 during its prime. I've done both PvM and PvM in pretty much every game Blizzard has made. I'm not wrong about Diablo 2 PvP and others have posted to the same effect. Diablo 2 PvP was riddled with people that abused mechanics, ganged up on weaker players, griefed, etc. It wasn't a fun experience for the majority of players, which lead it to be primarily people like yourself (not a good thing).
Blizzards new system levels the playing ground my attempting to match players up against other players with equivalent gear/skill. Will it be perfect? No. However, it will help make PvP more entertaining for more people. It'll avoid PvP in PvM as well, allowing people to enjoy the PvM more. So...better PvP and PvM...totally a bad idea.
That is like me saying I have more authority to speak on PvM then you do. In the end you have an opinion and you are very welcome to it, doesn't mean you gotta sit here and lurk in the PvP forums and try and belittle the previous PvP when you clearly don't have any clue about how it played or what the community did. If anything you are belittling me and every other real PvP'er out there with your ignorance.
Also don't get offended when I call you a baal runner, cause it is the truth. You run baal and MF me gear, I buy said gear, and do what I please with it without wasting my time MFing for it, everyone wins. Again we arn't asking for anything that hurts PvM, arn't asking for anything that costs a ton of resources, and yet you find a way to bitch and moan ha.
Me bitching and moaning? O.o; You're the one trying to shove outdated game mechanics into a brand new game. Just because you liked the way things worked in PvP for Diablo 2 doesn't mean the majority of us did. I did PvP in Diablo 2 during its prime. I've done both PvM and PvM in pretty much every game Blizzard has made. I'm not wrong about Diablo 2 PvP and others have posted to the same effect. Diablo 2 PvP was riddled with people that abused mechanics, ganged up on weaker players, griefed, etc. It wasn't a fun experience for the majority of players, which lead it to be primarily people like yourself (not a good thing).
Blizzards new system levels the playing ground my attempting to match players up against other players with equivalent gear/skill. Will it be perfect? No. However, it will help make PvP more entertaining for more people. It'll avoid PvP in PvM as well, allowing people to enjoy the PvM more. So...better PvP and PvM...totally a bad idea.
Hmm no? Only thing you and others have succeeded at doing when discussing D2 PvP is show how novice and how ignorant you are on the topic. Every complaint you had I gave a clear and valid reason why you felt it was a complaint and why in reality it shouldn't be and wasn't for any player with half a brain. We can do it all over again if you want, post all of those horrible mechanics and issues with D2 PvP or show me all of the imbalance and all of the garbage that it was and ill gladly prove you wrong on 9/10 of em.
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Disclaimer: If you don't want to read it... Don't. I don't intend to argue these points on the forums, this was just a random conversation with a friend, discuss amongst yourselves if you'd like but try to keep the flaming to a minimum, I think we did pretty good in the convo
Disclaimer II: LONG convo in the spoiler... You were warned...
Edit: Also sidenote, NektelMP is not my steam name or anything close to it
Friday, April 20, 2012
12:29 AM - NektelMP: D3 open beta weekend starts tomorrow
12:29 AM - Friend: ya i got in the beta a long time ago
12:29 AM - Friend: game is bad
12:29 AM - Friend: =(
12:30 AM - NektelMP: Meh, I've played a little, didn't seem that bad
12:31 AM - Friend: lol the game no pvp 4 players rmah retardedly ez game itself moonphysics
12:31 AM - Friend: Que to join games
12:31 AM - Friend: no open world pvp
12:31 AM - Friend: most of the game itself
12:31 AM - NektelMP: Ah, see I'm not much for pvp, and EVERY Diablo game was easy for the first 13 levels of normal lol
12:31 AM - NektelMP: I agree the lack of a game list sucks though
12:32 AM - Friend: eh i guess but the thing is Blizzard North made D1 and D2 Blizzard made D3 and it wont be any where near as good
12:32 AM - NektelMP: But you're still buying it <_< Right?
12:32 AM - Friend: lol no
12:33 AM - Friend: Torchlight 2 will be better
12:33 AM - Friend: Lineage eteranal will be better
12:33 AM - NektelMP: The hell it will, Torchligh was fun... For 15 minutes
12:33 AM - Friend: eh gotta get past the graphix and look at the game itself plus torchlight 2 will be multi player so that will make it way better
12:34 AM - NektelMP: I was looking at the game play lol, and I kinda like the cartoony look of TL but the gameplay was Diablo - good loot - fun skills
12:35 AM - Friend: well ya the ppl who made D2 and D1 are making torchlight
12:35 AM - Friend: Blizzard North is Runic games
12:35 AM - Friend: Most of them anyway
12:35 AM - Friend: which is why it is a better game in itself
12:35 AM - NektelMP: They are, but they've been on failboat after failboat for a while not, hellgate, mythos
12:35 AM - NektelMP: now*
12:36 AM - NektelMP: Meh, I think Diablo will be more fun than you think, and you'll be back
12:37 AM - Friend: na Hellgate was ok but before its time i mean none of their other games had a good publisher behind them
12:37 AM - Friend: D3 will be fun for 1 play through sure
12:37 AM - Friend: but after that the game will be boring
12:37 AM - Friend: If you ever played Darkspore or Dungeon Siege 3
12:37 AM - Friend: u can see the similarirties between them
12:37 AM - NektelMP: Major thing that hurts replayability from what I saw in beta was the lack of overworld randomization :\
12:38 AM - Friend: but none of those games did any good
12:38 AM - Friend: well thats ANOTHER thing i dont like
12:38 AM - Friend: the game is linear
12:38 AM - NektelMP: Well its garunteed to do good, its already presold millions, just depends on wether it can keep people
12:38 AM - NektelMP: Linear I disagree with, all diablos were linear
12:39 AM - NektelMP: A1 first square area -> second squar area -> third square area
12:39 AM - NektelMP: A1 repeat ->....
12:39 AM - NektelMP: A2*
12:39 AM - Friend: exactly
12:39 AM - Friend: but d3 u just have a path to follow
12:39 AM - Friend: now ofc in the other ones their was a path
12:39 AM - Friend: but it wasnt like u had 2 follow it
12:40 AM - Friend: in the beginning waypoints sure
12:40 AM - Friend: after that
12:40 AM - NektelMP: Give me an example of somewhere in D2 that you didn't follow a path?
12:41 AM - Friend: your talking about a general direction ofc your goin the same way
12:41 AM - Friend: but in D3 its like go this way here u go do it
12:41 AM - NektelMP: I think we're saying the same thing but thinking about it differently, the problem I see is that area entrances and exits are static, in D2 atleast those moved, in D3 start at bottom left, exit at top riht
12:41 AM - Friend: d2 think about like Act 2
12:41 AM - Friend: in the desert
12:42 AM - Friend: you just ran around till u found stuff
12:42 AM - Friend: no path
12:42 AM - NektelMP: Most everything you had to find was either a) on the edge, an exit to the next area or
12:43 AM - NektelMP: But yeah we're saying the same thing as far as that goes, the exits and entraces don't move, which is less interesting, but I don't see it being that huge
12:44 AM - NektelMP: Honestly I can't say that I had fun running throug the A2 desert looking for a tomb entrance when I'd done it 200 times before lol
12:44 AM - Friend: true i mean once u beat the game u skipped it all
12:44 AM - Friend: another thing this game will leave no room for creativity
12:45 AM - Friend: just gonna play the game and thats it
12:45 AM - Friend: i didnt play ladder on D2 i play NL and their was just more to do
12:45 AM - Friend: I mean we didnt even actually play the game most of the time
12:45 AM - Friend: it was pvp are lvling new guys
12:45 AM - Friend: and i mean like gubers not goin through the game
12:46 AM - NektelMP: Ah I hated the D2 pvp, specially hostility, which is why I never played hardcore lol
12:47 AM - NektelMP: Also always played Ladder <_< I was an item/runeword grinder, and when my characters went non ladder and couldn't find/make the best stuff anymore I lost interest
12:47 AM - Friend: When ppl say that it just doesnt make any since to me
12:48 AM - Friend: See this is where ppl dont understand things
12:48 AM - Friend: D2 = PVP now that being said their were a bunch of ppl like u who just farmed and stuff
12:48 AM - Friend: but if it was JUST you guys the game would nvr have lasted as long as it is
12:48 AM - NektelMP: As far as creativity, D2 had very little, if you wanted to get the best gear and play in hell, you couldn't just go putting points in fun skills, you had to research your build, put points in very specific order, have very specific gear, and thus there was 5mil whirlwind barbs 25mil hammerdins and 15 mil meteorb sorcs
12:49 AM - Friend: Their is no point in playing the game for items and then not use them for anything
12:49 AM - NektelMP: Ah but the point is mostly in the farming
12:49 AM - Friend: their is no endgame in D3 like WoW or something their isnt any raids
12:49 AM - NektelMP: Pvp is not the sustaining factor of D2... People like to think it is if they did it
12:50 AM - NektelMP: But item grinding is. Its what other ARPGs try to emulate, its the gamer treat system
12:50 AM - Friend: ya but it was bro Ppl who played ladder dont understand that
12:50 AM - Friend: you would see if you played Darkspore or Dungeon siege 3
12:50 AM - Friend: just pve for items and see how long it takes for you to quit
12:51 AM - NektelMP: I've played D2 most every year since its release
12:51 AM - NektelMP: And have many friends that join me
12:51 AM - NektelMP: Just because other games offer inferior clones of the gameplay doesn't mean Diablo can't do it
12:52 AM - Friend: like i said man a small portion of the population did ladder i mean think what happen to your chars after ladder reset
12:52 AM - Friend: went NL on NL it was All PVP
12:52 AM - Friend: And more ppl played NL then Ladder
12:52 AM - NektelMP: So your theory is that D3 will fail after how long?
12:53 AM - Friend: it wont FAIL like you think im sayin because blizzard fanboys will keep it going
12:53 AM - Friend: most people blindly follow blizzard in everything they do
12:53 AM - NektelMP: Well you said they won't, because PvM won't sustain it
12:53 AM - Friend: i mean thats proven with people who play wow still
12:53 AM - NektelMP: WoW is played because there hasn't been much of a viable challenger in the MMO market
12:53 AM - NektelMP: Still isn't really
12:53 AM - Friend: What im saying it will be a Failure in standards compared to the D2
12:54 AM - NektelMP: Star Wars took its shot, but they don't have enough to do
12:54 AM - Friend: No their are many goood mmo's but most ppl say eh wow is better and dont play them
12:54 AM - Friend: only ppl give AAA titles a chance
12:54 AM - Friend: then say this is just wow but looks diff
12:55 AM - Friend: Online games die cause of small playerbases
12:55 AM - Friend: and the small playerbases dont come from them being bad games it comes from ppl just staying in WoW and other games that are Ez or they dont wanna try anything
12:55 AM - Friend: Plenty of great games that dont make it cause ppl are just well ppl its what they do
12:55 AM - NektelMP: I was never a fan of WoW, my favorite MMO was the failed Vanguard, which was superior in every way.... Except that they didn't fix their bugs, and they didn't cater to the changing MMO consumer, part of the reason I liked it, it was still challenging, but that made it fail, and it made it not a viable competitor
12:57 AM - Friend: but see their are a bunch of games like that which could become better but most ppl say well im gonna play D3 cause its D3 and ya thats it
12:57 AM - NektelMP: The fact of D2s sustainability really comes down to botters, botters keep the lights on and pay the bills, when blizz can ban thousands of accounts and have the botters buy thousands of new copies its a win win for them
12:58 AM - NektelMP: I'm going to play D3 because I need my gamer treat pellet of kill a monster hope for a shiny lol
12:58 AM - NektelMP: Major area that TL failed in, I hardly cared what dropped when I killed stuff
1:00 AM - Friend: true and u will fill the same in D3 and its simply because in D2 when u farmed for items you used them for something
1:00 AM - Friend: there was a demand
1:00 AM - Friend: ppl used it for pvp
1:00 AM - Friend: TL ofc it doesnt matter
1:00 AM - Friend: its single player and ur items dont matter as long as u win the game
1:00 AM - Friend: D3 farm items just so u can farm more items?
1:00 AM - Friend: honestly u think that is a good theory for a game?
1:01 AM - NektelMP: Nah, I used it for more PVM, kill x monsters in y time, find better item, kill x monsters in y-z time, find better item, kill x monsters in y -2z time
1:01 AM - NektelMP: Yeah lol
1:01 AM - NektelMP: TL counted on that theory, they didn't expect people to stop playing when they beat the last boss
1:01 AM - NektelMP: Remember the infinite dungeon?
1:03 AM - NektelMP: Hell thats what most RPGs that aren't PVP focused count on, I remember taking like 120 hours or so in FFVII to complete every side quest, kill every extra weapon boss and cast knights of the round 12 times in a row or whatever it was
1:03 AM - NektelMP: Why? Don't know, could have beaten the game in probably less than half the time
1:03 AM - NektelMP: Spent the time to get stronger and stronger because that was the fun part of the game
1:05 AM - Friend: see what are u getting stronger for you have no goal for you that might be fun and i know other people like that
1:06 AM - Friend: but most ppl arnt gonna do that
1:06 AM - Friend: Thats just like TL1
1:06 AM - Friend: play the game over and over to get stronger
1:06 AM - Friend: but like u said TL was boring
1:06 AM - Friend: no point to it once u beat it once or twice
1:07 AM - NektelMP: Well technically theres no point to play ANY game, we give them points, and my point is just to make the strongest character possible, its fun for me to find the best items, even if I don't use them, its NOT fun for me to pvp, even if I knew I'd win every time, THAT has absolutely no point as far as I can tell
1:08 AM - NektelMP: So you beat the other guy and you get....? Nothing
1:08 AM - NektelMP: No little gamer treat drops, no new content, basically all I could figure is that its self affirmation, but why?
1:09 AM - Friend: well lets think beat a monster that u know whats gonna happen every time u fight him or Go against other people in a situation that will always be different
1:09 AM - Friend: u do not konw you will win every time
1:09 AM - Friend: but u do know u will win every time vs the computer
1:10 AM - Friend: its the computer its the same thing
1:10 AM - Friend: players are random your point was backwards
1:11 AM - NektelMP: Nope my point wasn't random fighting at all, my point was the ending, when I beat that boss in D2 I had no idea what was going to drop, what might make my character better, what might make me save it and make another character to use it
1:11 AM - NektelMP: Wether you win or lose in pvp.... Nothing changes
1:11 AM - NektelMP: You don't get anything new
1:12 AM - Friend: its not about geting new things in PVP your right but what are you getting the new items for in D2
1:12 AM - NektelMP: When you pvp someone a) You lose
1:13 AM - NektelMP: Maybe the next build you want to make, no one just loads up and empty D2 account and says "My first char will be a SMITER!".... The hell it will if you aren't buying with cash or have a farming character
1:14 AM - Friend: well this is the view most of the people on D3 forums because they all played ladder but the majority of the D2 population isnt on those forums because most ppl played D2 NL and it was about PVP you MF'd till you got some good stuff to trade with until later in the games timeline when ppl just duped and traded on D2JSP
1:15 AM - Friend: which is another proof of how the game was about PVP not ladder or w/e
1:15 AM - Friend: D2jsp all about trading items for FG or other items for PVP
1:15 AM - NektelMP: ALL the people that post on the forums were ladder and non pvp?... I thought you said the majority of people didn't play ladder and it was mostly PvP? By your reasoning there should be GINORMOUS outcry from the majority of people that still play diablo?
1:16 AM - Friend: There was when the D3 site first came up and for a while
1:16 AM - Friend: it was like that i was all over the d3 forums
1:16 AM - NektelMP: It was all over the forums from a very small amount of people :\
1:17 AM - Friend: but why would i keep posting stuff if ppl like you are gonna keep posting over and over saying No pvp is boring
1:17 AM - Friend: eventually it got boring
1:17 AM - NektelMP: Seriously now I've been watching this stuff since it was announced and forums went up, I live on the fan forums for hours out of the day
1:17 AM - Friend: Actually it was a huge thing on D3 forums and stuff still pops up
1:17 AM - NektelMP: Why would people like me keep posting stuff if people like you are the marjority and all complaining?
1:17 AM - Friend: but Bliz fanboys just Flame all threads
1:18 AM - Friend: so it gets pointless
1:18 AM - NektelMP: Pvp players were never the majority on any forum :\ Of old diablo players and/or new
1:19 AM - NektelMP: I don't know, honestly I've argued for more pvp, but I understand the reasons against it
1:19 AM - NektelMP: I personally support the idea of duel/hostility in private games only
1:20 AM - NektelMP: That way people could do it with their friends and not force it on anyone
1:20 AM - NektelMP: But the reasoning behind not doing that is A) It completely undermines their plans for arenas and
1:23 AM - Friend:
http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/4496510979
1:23 AM - Friend: this is what im talking about its pointless to post on d3 forums
1:23 AM - NektelMP: Hell in D2 the majority of people that bought the game never even made a Bnet account if I remember correctly
1:23 AM - Friend: or on any blizz forum
1:24 AM - Friend: fanboys because Blizz is the best company ever and even though everyon complains about their games they are still playing them
1:24 AM - Friend: Old blizz was tight
1:24 AM - Friend: D2 Early WoW
1:24 AM - Friend: Warcraft 2
1:24 AM - Friend: SC1
1:25 AM - NektelMP: Soooo you linked me to a QQ thread about him not getting into beta even though hes a fan and not liking mods?
1:26 AM - Friend: no i linked u to a thread about someone dissagreeing with blizz
1:26 AM - Friend: and getting buried because of it
1:27 AM - NektelMP: Honestly I don't see the problem, I wouldn't see a problem if it had been deleted, its a useless not constructive in any way QQ thread, hes not offering advice, or informing anyone of anything other than "I don't like you and I'm leaving"
1:27 AM - NektelMP: I think thats rediculous, especially during a beta
1:27 AM - NektelMP: Now, do I think trolling and flaming it is ok? No, but thats another point
1:28 AM - Friend: But do this play Darkspore for as long as you can and if you like it then good for you cause it is a great game graphics are probably better then D3 even though its a different style but the game itself is the same concept and Darkspore failed terribly because what they offered is all that D3 is offereing
1:28 AM - Friend: they are different games but generally they are the same
1:29 AM - NektelMP: I probably won't like it, but I doubt its offering what D3 is, every ARPG under the sun claims to be the same as D3
1:29 AM - NektelMP: On a very basic level, they are the same, hell Titans Quest was practically the same game in many ways
1:29 AM - Friend: no they dont, and this is exactly what d3 is
1:29 AM - NektelMP: Skill tree, set items, legendary items, and it sucked
1:29 AM - Friend: Que up in matchmaking for a game
1:30 AM - Friend: PVP arena
1:30 AM - Friend: 4 players in a game
1:30 AM - Friend: and the game was boring
1:30 AM - Friend: it wasnt a bad game itself
1:30 AM - NektelMP: How you join a game, and ior pvp or how mnay people in a game have nothing to do what what I remember liking about D2
1:30 AM - Friend: but no incentive to play
1:31 AM - Friend: the thing is you have offer both
1:31 AM - Friend: and D3 is saying Just kill monster over and over dont worry about anything else
1:32 AM - NektelMP: So tell me whats your beef with arenas?
1:32 AM - NektelMP: Because they aren't saying NO PVP
1:32 AM - Friend: Nothing wrong with arenas but it wont be anywhere near as fun as open world pvp was
1:33 AM - Friend: Just like in WoW arenas where like super Kool for a bit then it was like eh
1:33 AM - NektelMP: Most of the pvp that I remember took place in the arbitrary location of A1 outside of town in D2 right? So whats the difference if its that or an arena?
1:33 AM - Friend: Diablo pvp shouldnt be confined
1:33 AM - NektelMP: But like I just said... It generally was
1:33 AM - NektelMP: Your problem is that an arena is smaller?
1:34 AM - NektelMP: Its not like you started pvp with someone and then took a random way point somewhere and hid in a corner
1:35 AM - Friend: im not saying Down with arenas even though i dont care about them one way or another
1:35 AM - Friend: im saying they need to have both
1:35 AM - NektelMP: Well I just want to understand why the need for both? What do you lost by doing pvp in an arena that you did in d2? Besides open world greifing
1:35 AM - Friend: More options which is what everyone wants
1:36 AM - Friend: and plz ppl who complain about hostile pk'ing and stuff are bitches
1:36 AM - Friend: make a private game
1:36 AM - Friend: but then again
1:37 AM - Friend: in D3 all they have to do is make an option
1:37 AM - NektelMP: So thats what you're upset about not being able to do
1:37 AM - NektelMP: ?
1:37 AM - Friend: if someone hostiles you say either u accept it or not
1:37 AM - Friend: then if u say no u got no problem
1:37 AM - Friend: if u say yes then ok u wanna fight them
1:37 AM - Friend: pretty simple
1:37 AM - NektelMP: Wouldn't work
1:37 AM - Friend: ya it kinda would
1:37 AM - Friend: i come in and hostile u
1:37 AM - Friend: u say no
1:38 AM - Friend: what just happend
1:38 AM - Friend: ?
1:38 AM - Friend: no hostile
1:38 AM - NektelMP: A) People would spam the challenges
1:38 AM - Friend: obv they wouldnt have it so u can spam it
1:38 AM - Friend: that wouldnt make since
1:38 AM - Friend: and if u dont want ppl to make it harder make it PRIVATE
1:39 AM - Friend: or just get more expierence/better loot
1:39 AM - Friend: not a big problem their
1:39 AM - NektelMP: So people who want to play the game with peple they don't know don't get to because you want that feature added?
1:39 AM - Friend: no because when u make a game u can have a option to either enable pvp or not
1:39 AM - Friend: solved
1:40 AM - Friend: but u cant make games cause u are que'ing for them
1:40 AM - NektelMP: Sigh, well back to my question, you're saying you don't have options in D3 that were in D2 as far as pvp, I
1:40 AM - NektelMP: 'm asking specifically what you don't have te ability to do anymore
1:41 AM - NektelMP: Btw, there is going to be a way to enable pvp or not when you create the game.... Its called arenas lol
1:42 AM - Friend: no arenas is not enabling pvp while ur in a game
1:42 AM - Friend: arenas is que'ing and joining an arena
1:42 AM - NektelMP: Rather than queuing and justing a pvm game so you can pvp?...
1:42 AM - Friend: enable pvp is in a game and fighting someone anywhere
1:42 AM - NektelMP: joining*
1:42 AM - NektelMP: So your major problem is that you might have to spend the 30-40 seconds leaving a game and making a new one?
1:44 AM - NektelMP: See this is what bothers me, theres nothing that a pvp player can say is lost, besides the inconvenience of having to join a pvp game setup to pvp...
1:44 AM - NektelMP: You wouldn't expect me to get in LoL and bitch that people need to leave me alone while I kill the creeps cause I want to PvM in the PvP game right?
1:46 AM - Friend: No that is not my major problem, my majore problem is the most of the game itself. Another Major problem is that ppl like you are trying so hard to argue the game will be great because you can kill monsters over and over. PvP is a part of Diablo and D3 is taking it out and saying here we will give you arenas so we dont have to worry about it keep the game seperate the game is not meant to be like that
1:46 AM - Friend: you should be able to do everything in your game
1:46 AM - Friend: D2 was like a Mini mmo but ofc it wasnt an mmo
1:47 AM - Friend: you had a very large world
1:47 AM - Friend: where you could do anything
1:47 AM - Friend: D3 is just you follow this script then do it over and over and enjoy it
1:47 AM - NektelMP: So you think that when blizzard created the D1 and D2 classes they made the skill trees with respect to pvp? Thats nonsense. PvP has always been an 'added feature' and the game was made for PvM... To argue differently is silly
1:48 AM - Friend: indeed but pvp worked and it worked in both of those games
1:48 AM - NektelMP: And it will work in D3
1:48 AM - Friend: u can say its silly but they worked for a reason
1:48 AM - Friend: they didnt get lucky when they made both of those games
1:48 AM - Friend: it worked for a reason
1:48 AM - Friend: and the ppl behind this new diablo dont have a clue what that reason is
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The only thing I can honestly say I feel we are losing in Diablo 3 from Diablo 2 is PvP griefing by forcing players to PvP when they don't want to...and honestly that is a good thing.
Oooh... a 1v1 ladder on a site that doesn't even show up as a diablo fansite in a search. Definitely representative of the majority of PvP. Oh and its 10~ years after the launch of D2, making quite after the prime of the game. You totally know what you're talking about...right...
Sorry, but no...I played Diablo 2 heavily during its prime and kept up on it on and off until a year or so ago. The MAJORITY of PvP was done outside town in Act 1 and DID consist primarily of people just sitting there killing anyone that comes out. Legitimate duels were generally done in smaller circles during the prime of Diablo 2. I'm not willing to dig through 500~ pages of forum posts to find out, but looking at the last few pages it doesn't look like that ladder has more then 50 players...if that. So I have no idea how you think that represents any kind of MAJORITY.
You're better off not talking to that tool =D
Instead, how about google "Diablo fansite" yourself. Sorry, but D2JSP isn't a site that a majority of players looking for Diablo information would even see. As I said in my post as well, that ladder itself doesn't seem to have more then 50 members...so it hardly represents any kind of majority.
+1 for every time I see the term dead horse.
So tell me....how many "Players vs Monsters" threads and posts are there..? How many PvP post now? Also take note of what you just said "~10 years" after release...10 YEARS! It is still running to this day. The majority of the PvP players like me and Koda and well everyone else that was good are gone, and yet they still managed to get MULTIPLE ladders up and running and filled with 50 people. Why would you make a ladder with more then 50 people also? I have ran those ladders and I capped them out at 10, anything more was a huge time consumption as they can rapidly change.
Just do yourself a favor, stick to talking about Blizzards views, something you seem to know. Stay out of talking about PvP in D2 and stop trying to tell us what the majority did while you were getting help killing Baal.
Wow, resorting to insults yet again...way to prove your point. I've played D2 PvP. Specifically I PvP'd in Diablo 2 during its prime. Judging anything related to D2 by how its done now is absolutely stupid. Diablo 2 is way past its prime and many of the players (both PvM and PvP) have left for other games. During D2's prime is what matters as its more representative of the MAJORITY and the MAJORITY of PvP was done exactly how I stated.
In all honestly I think you've played D2 so long that you've become blinded to the fact that the world moved on. There are better games out now, with better ways of doing things. Hostility is a bad system as the only people it really benefits is griefers. Sure there are some legit uses but the majority of the time it will just be used for griefing (and that's even what you want it for). You aren't a majority at all.
Its evident by this forum and the fact that there aren't even enough PvP players posting in a PvP forum on the most popular Diablo 3 fansite to back you up. The reality is, you're wrong. The majority of the Diablo 3 community likes the new system and is glad that hostility is dead. They want dueling moved to Arenas so that they don't have to worry about people like yourself acting like a child and spamming them with duel requests. They want to enjoy the content be it PvM or PvP and Blizzard is giving them what they want.
Sure, you may be some hotshot player from D2 now.. but D2 is a shadow of what it was during its prime and those that still play it hardly represent a majority of the new community that is D3.
Wow, awesome to see that you went from a reasonable player attempting to use logic to sinking to Adon's level and using insults instead. Seems to be the last resort of most every PvP focused player here. I give logical reasons why you guys are wrong and you guys resort to petty insults. How can you possibly expect to be taken seriously?
I know full well about D2JSP. The reality is though that it doesn't come up in a search for "diablo fansite" or even just "diablo". This means that anyone looking for information about Diablo games isn't going to find D2JSP. It also means that the majority of the players in the CURRENT diablo community probably aren't regulars there. Hell, the majority of the D3 community probably don't still play D2 at all.
Just because a minority of people on a trading site for a game far past it's prime manage to make player-run ladders doesn't mean they represent ANY kind of majority as far as the community as a whole goes. It also doesn't represent how PvP was run during the game's prime either.
Arena gives a much more integrated and organized means to PvP. It maintains a casual environment as the focus of the game is co-op. Instead of getting a slapped on system that forces players to make up rules, this one has set rules, varied game~modes, and even matchmaking. It is vastly superior to D2/D1's PvP.
While world PvP would be amazing and actually true to the Diablo series, it isn't required and we can live with that. We can deal with having to make 3 games just to duel once, what we can't deal with is Blizzard tying our hands and giving us actually less PvP content then D2. Yes we have an arena! Whoopty-do!. Thus far we are locked into 3v3 and 4v4 which is pathetic in standards to D2.
Also there will be plenty of Baal runners in the PvP que for the arena, so I don't think any PvP'er is going to have a hard time "ranking" up.
Also Ecutruin how did I insult you? Because I stated the truth that you have no real business discussing PvP at high level? That you are by heart and nature a Baal runner and not a PvP'er? Does the truth offend you sir? Does it hurt inside to know my PvP based characters could PvM just as well if not better then your PvM characters? What is it?
Chill out. It's called a running joke.
Lmao, you continue to belittle others as part of your reasoning. Sorry man but it doesn't matter if I played as much PvP as you did. What matters is that I have interest in PvP. I have just as much right to discuss PvP topics as you do. You need to realize that your style of PvP is gone in Diablo 3. PvP in Diablo 3 is designed specifically with people like myself in mind. Therefore I probably even have more right to comment on the issues then you do.
Also don't get offended when I call you a baal runner, cause it is the truth. You run baal and MF me gear, I buy said gear, and do what I please with it without wasting my time MFing for it, everyone wins. Again we arn't asking for anything that hurts PvM, arn't asking for anything that costs a ton of resources, and yet you find a way to bitch and moan ha.
Me bitching and moaning? O.o; You're the one trying to shove outdated game mechanics into a brand new game. Just because you liked the way things worked in PvP for Diablo 2 doesn't mean the majority of us did. I did PvP in Diablo 2 during its prime. I've done both PvM and PvM in pretty much every game Blizzard has made. I'm not wrong about Diablo 2 PvP and others have posted to the same effect. Diablo 2 PvP was riddled with people that abused mechanics, ganged up on weaker players, griefed, etc. It wasn't a fun experience for the majority of players, which lead it to be primarily people like yourself (not a good thing).
Blizzards new system levels the playing ground my attempting to match players up against other players with equivalent gear/skill. Will it be perfect? No. However, it will help make PvP more entertaining for more people. It'll avoid PvP in PvM as well, allowing people to enjoy the PvM more. So...better PvP and PvM...totally a bad idea.