Ya I like that idea that sounds good I also like Jay Willson's idea of only showing wins. If you had a lot of wins or if it showed how many kills you got would be great. I would like to see my own ranking though if they could make that an option that you could hide or show people or if there is a mod or something. They could also just have a casual PvP and a ranked one or something. I also like PvP achievements and banner rewards. An other thing that I think would be cool is if you got some kind of currency to buy special PvP gear that would eliminate a lot of variables. I don't think they have to go and make a whole new set of PvP set or try to separate them. Really I think the skill they have right now will work great. If there is an over powered class instead of nerfing it (unless they really had too) they could buff the other classes but I think that if it is fairly balanced in PvE then it will be balanced great in PvP. If it is not then they can arrange the special PvP gear to make them equal. They could also tweak certain skill inside the PvP. As for the RMAH I don't know what to think about it. I know it was put in to stop third-party sites but the could have also just made gear BOA. But that would probable destroy Diablo's economy. Probably just PvP gear bound to account.
I can't reply on that without repeating what I have already said. The one thing I don't think we have alked about on this thread is the skill cap and a possible fan bass. If Diablo was an eSport then it would be the only one of its kind. As for skill it would still be fun to practice for hours. I played at Blizzcon 11 and there was a lot teamwork and you have to manage all yours and your teammates cool downs, buffs and stun effects. You also have to watch out for LoS. If it is TDM I don't know if the spawning is random or not but if it isn't you will have to learn we're they will spawn.
Oh ya I am sure that's what I am doing. I'm not going to keep running around in circles. Stop being lazy and go read my other posts we have already gone over all that. Diablo can be an eSports if it is going to be fun or not to play/watch I don't know. I think it will be preatty cool to watch and it will be fun to play. You don't have to be so dam defensive, if you don't want it to be an eSports then go somewhere else.
I think we are misusing the term 'esports'. Sure, I think it would be fun to have D3 be competitive enough that people hold competitions for all sorts of things, from PVP to how fast you can clear HC and SC parts in inferno, ect.
But making it an 'esport' isn't just that. An Esport implies that it'l will be completely, numerically balanced down to the last skill. It even implies going as far as having separate gear for pvp, pvm, and I think that's where a lot of people are having trouble supporting the Esport idea.
I for one, don't want to have my skills constantly, patch after patch reworked for cooldowns, damage, CC ability ect. I also don't want to have farmed all my awesome gear, only to step into arena and have to wear the same gear as everyone else. Now you can argue that this won't happen, but take a look at EVERY other Esport possible; They are balanced until you can't recognize the original game.
Yes, I support competitions in D3 with PVP and PVM, but I don't support getting it labeled an Esport for the sake of balance. Diablos always been a PVM game, and having as much attention towards PVP that it's gotten for D3 is awesome, but I'm against turning it around and having it a PVP game first.
You know, as much as I hate to admit it...I'm going to side with jaco111 on this point. Diablo 3 could be an eSport as long as people want to watch it being played. It does need to have a spectator mode for PvP, however, which may or may not be implemented...only time will tell. Beyond spectator though, it really doesn't need perfect balance, or a ladder to really make it an eSport. If people love watching it there will be an incentive to run tournaments.
Will Diablo 3 have 'fair' matches with perfect balance, however, no...not likely. The amount of work that would have to be put into the game in order to support this just isn't likely to happen. It might, but its very unlikely.
I know that the PvP vs PvM 'war' boils down to this...
PvM players do not want to see the game's development driven by PvP. We don't want to lose our over the top abilities, crazy items, etc...because they would be too good for PvP. That is pretty much the main argument PvM players have against PvP. A lesser concern is that too many competitive PvP features will enforce the elitism that comes with competitive environments (aka "You're only rank 1234, what a noob"). We'd prefer to keep the game fun and not have to worry as much about people flaunting their ego. Granted, it'll still happen some in PvM...but the more competitive the environment is...the more likely it is to happen.
PvP players seem to want a set of features to let them flaunt their ego. Some PvP players just want the information as a way to track personal achievement (such as jaco111), but many of them want stats and such to show they are better then other people. This to me doesn't seem like something that fosters a fun community. If I'm wrong in what these stats and features bring to the table, let me know...but all I can see them being used for is flaunting one's ego.
YES finally thank you. The ego is probably what drives all PvP games and to much can be bad and sometimes irritating. Me personally I get horrible K/D ratios in almost every game I play but I still want to see my ratings and everyone else's.
Only time will tell if it can be a successful eSports. I also promise you this the if eSports somehow ruins the game I will write an apology and never play the game again.
I would have to see how they balance PvP before I give my verdict here, but I can only hope that it manages to get there.
To be a competative and attractive eSports game, it needs balance, a dedicated player base, and a high skill cap. We'll just have to wait and see, I suppose.
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"I'm just getting started. I'm gonna pull the whole thing down. I gonna bring the whole fuckin' diseased, corrupt temple down on your heads. It's gonna be Biblical."
"But making it an 'esport' isn't just that. An Esport implies that it'l will be completely, numerically balanced down to the last skill. It even implies going as far as having separate gear for pvp, pvm, and I think that's where a lot of people are having trouble supporting the Esport idea."
Wrong, all an eSport means is that it's in the eSport bracket for competition. Games do not become eSport based on their balance. You can actually just pay your game onto the eSports scene and stay in it, purely based on the fact that it is profitable (see League of Legends). Tons of bad barely balanced games make eSports status. The only few that go for absolute balance are SC, DotA, and CS, WoW is hit or miss with its season balance, because they allowed PvE to trump PvP in importance (for the most part) but still actually tries for balance (until SC2, came out, then they said fuck it). You know there have been a lot more games than that on the eSport scene. They are there due to popularity and the competitive crowd that's with them, NOT balance.
If there is enough money in it, and the game has PvP it can become an eSport, regardless of the balance of a game. Blizzard likes to try to balance as much as possible for PvP for the games they make to be "eSport" viable. Wilson just doesnt want to bother trying to balance for it, so by blizzard standards they wont balance for an eSport, however I have this feeling Wilson is going to be usurped by the profit numbers they could generate making it go eSports, so, only time will tell if it will end up that way. For now, it's a no go. i feel it will stay as a no go for a long time, unless blizzard is heavily pressured by $$$ and the fans. They seem content on just having 1 game in the eSport scene, since SC2, they have downgraded balance and eSport hype for WoW.
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"...We few, we happy few, we band of brothers; for he to-day that sheds his blood with me
shall be my brother..."
Wrong, all an eSport means is that it's in the eSport bracket for competition. Games do not become eSport based on their balance. You can actually just pay your game onto the eSports scene and stay in it, purely based on the fact that it is profitable (see League of Legends). Tons of bad barely balanced games make eSports status. The only few that go for absolute balance are SC, DotA, and CS, WoW is hit or miss with its season balance, because they allowed PvE to trump PvP in importance (for the most part) but still actually tries for balance (until SC2, came out, then they said fuck it). You know there have been a lot more games than that on the eSport scene. They are there due to popularity and the competitive crowd that's with them, NOT balance.
If there is enough money in it, and the game has PvP it can become an eSport, regardless of the balance of a game. Blizzard likes to try to balance as much as possible for PvP for the games they make to be "eSport" viable. Wilson just doesnt want to bother trying to balance for it, so by blizzard standards they wont balance for an eSport, however I have this feeling Wilson is going to be usurped by the profit numbers they could generate making it go eSports, so, only time will tell if it will end up that way. For now, it's a no go. i feel it will stay as a no go for a long time, unless blizzard is heavily pressured by $$$ and the fans. They seem content on just having 1 game in the eSport scene, since SC2, they have downgraded balance and eSport hype for WoW.
There is actually a very good reason as to why they have taken the stance of not having eSport-level PvP in their various RPGs. Giving people an expectation that the game should be an eSport creates a situation where that expectation drives the development of the game. It became very evident while playing WoW and they even admit that they made the mistake of letting PvP drive the development of the game. In Diablo 3 they started out with the simple rule that PvP would be a casual feature of the game, so that any competitive play would be on the users to come up with. This keeps PvP from driving the development of the game and lets them focus on the RPG aspects...you know, because its an RPG and not a PvP centered game.
This doesn't mean we won't get PvP features. It just means that those features won't be designed around making PvP into an eSport. Classes will likely be relatively unbalanced in various ways, we likely won't see a ton of Arena customization, etc. However, we will see a lot more people interested in PvP due to the ability to jump right into a match that pairs you against people the system feels are roughly your skill level. This will appeal to a lot of players that would otherwise ignore PvP either due to experiences with D2 PvP or other such reasons. This move will net Blizzard more PvP players and improve PvM. Its a win-win.
I simply post on this thread every now and then to state that D3 will become a massive e-sport legend of a game.
Sorry, but its only likely to happen if players somehow make it happen via Arenas with little additional support from Blizzard. Blizzard has outright stated they have little intention of adding any feature that would primarily be for eSports. In addition to that, since gear plays a rather vital role on character strength and gear can be purchased via the RMAH, I highly doubt D3 will be taken seriously as a platform for large competitive venues specifically because of its more casual stance on PvP.
I simply post on this thread every now and then to state that D3 will become a massive e-sport legend of a game.
Maybe an underground sport, but I highly doubt it will ever be on the level of SC2 as in tournys held by Blizzard and whatnot. The only way for that to happen would be to make people in the arena wear specific gear, maybe ban some spells... it just wouldn't be Diablo.
I personally am all for D3 as an e-sport. Other than Blizzard structuring balance around PvE instead of PvP, I dont see any reason why D3 isn't a PERFECT candidate for skillful, action-packed PvP matches, and I don't even like to PvP... Would I give a crap if they did some balancing of my PvE skills for PvP? As long as they didn't completely destroy my toon, absolutely not.
I personally am all for D3 as an e-sport. Other than Blizzard structuring balance around PvE instead of PvP, I dont see any reason why D3 isn't a PERFECT candidate for skillful, action-packed PvP matches, and I don't even like to PvP... Would I give a crap if they did some balancing of my PvE skills for PvP? As long as they didn't completely destroy my toon, absolutely not.
I would.
PvE > PvP.
You an have all the PvP you want as long as you don't fucking touch my PvE.
5] #30 - 2012/04/24 06:36:00 PMWe want PvP to be incredibly challenging and fun, but we want to avoid turning it into a truly competitive leagues/ladders eSport. We just don't think Diablo gameplay is very conducive for that type of controlled environment where balance is paramount.
That said, we want to develop PvP as an engaging and rewarding system. What we don't want to do is take a traditional eSports approach to PvP, where balance will become so important to a competitive ranking system that solo and cooperative gameplay feel a bit neutered as a result.
We want your characters to feel totally imba. Then we want you to enter some Arenas, send the scorched remains of other players' corpses flying, and let the satisfaction wash over you -- until your opponents take similar care of your hero, that is.
^ that information has been out since '11 that doesnt end the thread lol. There has been more discussion and debate about d3 being an eSport since blizzcon and the press interviews where they stated they dont WANT an eSport. You can find the pvp video here
Just becuase the developers aren't going to make it balanced for PvP doesn't mean we can't put our own rules and requirements to make the game balanced and competitive.
I fail to see how them saying they don't want it to be an eSport will stop us... Now if there is no party system or custom games then yeah, PvP will blow donkey balls. I want to slay with my friends, if we want to slay with randoms in a competitve environment there's better games for that. Not having parties/custom invite PvP games will pretty much kill any chance of PvP in Diablo3 as an esport.
Just becuase the developers aren't going to make it balanced for PvP doesn't mean we can't put our own rules and requirements to make the game balanced and competitive.
I fail to see how them saying they don't want it to be an eSport will stop us... Now if there is no party system or custom games then yeah, PvP will blow donkey balls. I want to slay with my friends, if we want to slay with randoms in a competitve environment there's better games for that. Not having parties/custom invite PvP games will pretty much kill any chance of PvP in Diablo3 as an esport.
No...itll kill any chance of PvP at all in D3. If we can't customize how we want to fight even at end of match then it is a total fail.
Short: NO!
Long: What the fuck are you thinking! D3 is not even close to an esport. To call D3 an esport is a insult to real esports like SC2 or QuakeLive.
Haha, well lets look at SC2.
It definitely takes some skill, more then Diablo though? Maybe, I might give you that. You got your beginning of game where you gotta scout to determine build...then you have optimal build to beat said build...so follow that flowchart. Then middle game...again...scout and flowchart. Ok now late game...flowchart. SC2 is a ton of flowchart, X has created Y so I am going Z. Yea managing all of that is probably the only skill involved beyond microing your units correctly which also takes skill.
Now in Diablo you have to know matchups (Flow charts that move!), you have to use terrain to your advantage (Just like SC!), you have to aim your attacks(MICROING), and You have to dodge attacks(MICROING).
Id say both games take a good amount of skill and reflexes at high end, SC I will give the nod to because it has much more going on. However to say Diablo can't compete at an esport level is just plain wrong, and spoken like a person who didn't really PvP in Diablo congrats.
For the record, I don't want esports in D3, nor do I think it will happen. If it does it is because of the community and it could very well happen if they want and Blizzard really can't do shit about it.
Sry, you have no idea! Its not about: Counter Unit X with Unit Y... that doesn't win you alot of games. Its all about mechanics! You need to be fast, know your hotkeys, be able to move and select your units blindly. And don't forget all the macro/micro.
Seriously, Diablo 3 doesn't need alot of skill. Its all about knowing what stat to go for and what items to use.Gameplay-wise you can't show alot of skill. A little bit of movement and usefull skill-combos aren't really skillchecks.
Diablo 3 is made for WoW-Casuals, so don't expect a extremly skill-based and challenging game.
Haha really? Seriously?
It isn't about hard counters really? Might wanna learn the game buddy, it is ALL about countering your opponent. Yes microing definitely takes place at high end gameplay, but even great microing will lose to a hard counter from a medium player.
Well then, I am confident that you will be able to stomp me in the arena or even D2 for that matter because moving your character and aiming are nonskill based actions correct? Damn where have I seen that gameplay from....oh yea kinda like a FPS. So FPS are non skill games...wait isn't quake a shooter? Ok that won't work..so knowing match ups and utilizing zoning tactics...that is kinda like a fighter...but that doesn't take skill either right?
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But making it an 'esport' isn't just that. An Esport implies that it'l will be completely, numerically balanced down to the last skill. It even implies going as far as having separate gear for pvp, pvm, and I think that's where a lot of people are having trouble supporting the Esport idea.
I for one, don't want to have my skills constantly, patch after patch reworked for cooldowns, damage, CC ability ect. I also don't want to have farmed all my awesome gear, only to step into arena and have to wear the same gear as everyone else. Now you can argue that this won't happen, but take a look at EVERY other Esport possible; They are balanced until you can't recognize the original game.
Yes, I support competitions in D3 with PVP and PVM, but I don't support getting it labeled an Esport for the sake of balance. Diablos always been a PVM game, and having as much attention towards PVP that it's gotten for D3 is awesome, but I'm against turning it around and having it a PVP game first.
Will Diablo 3 have 'fair' matches with perfect balance, however, no...not likely. The amount of work that would have to be put into the game in order to support this just isn't likely to happen. It might, but its very unlikely.
I know that the PvP vs PvM 'war' boils down to this...
PvM players do not want to see the game's development driven by PvP. We don't want to lose our over the top abilities, crazy items, etc...because they would be too good for PvP. That is pretty much the main argument PvM players have against PvP. A lesser concern is that too many competitive PvP features will enforce the elitism that comes with competitive environments (aka "You're only rank 1234, what a noob"). We'd prefer to keep the game fun and not have to worry as much about people flaunting their ego. Granted, it'll still happen some in PvM...but the more competitive the environment is...the more likely it is to happen.
PvP players seem to want a set of features to let them flaunt their ego. Some PvP players just want the information as a way to track personal achievement (such as jaco111), but many of them want stats and such to show they are better then other people. This to me doesn't seem like something that fosters a fun community. If I'm wrong in what these stats and features bring to the table, let me know...but all I can see them being used for is flaunting one's ego.
Only time will tell if it can be a successful eSports. I also promise you this the if eSports somehow ruins the game I will write an apology and never play the game again.
I think this disscusion has come to an end :).
To be a competative and attractive eSports game, it needs balance, a dedicated player base, and a high skill cap. We'll just have to wait and see, I suppose.
- Clay Shelton
Wrong, all an eSport means is that it's in the eSport bracket for competition. Games do not become eSport based on their balance. You can actually just pay your game onto the eSports scene and stay in it, purely based on the fact that it is profitable (see League of Legends). Tons of bad barely balanced games make eSports status. The only few that go for absolute balance are SC, DotA, and CS, WoW is hit or miss with its season balance, because they allowed PvE to trump PvP in importance (for the most part) but still actually tries for balance (until SC2, came out, then they said fuck it). You know there have been a lot more games than that on the eSport scene. They are there due to popularity and the competitive crowd that's with them, NOT balance.
If there is enough money in it, and the game has PvP it can become an eSport, regardless of the balance of a game. Blizzard likes to try to balance as much as possible for PvP for the games they make to be "eSport" viable. Wilson just doesnt want to bother trying to balance for it, so by blizzard standards they wont balance for an eSport, however I have this feeling Wilson is going to be usurped by the profit numbers they could generate making it go eSports, so, only time will tell if it will end up that way. For now, it's a no go. i feel it will stay as a no go for a long time, unless blizzard is heavily pressured by $$$ and the fans. They seem content on just having 1 game in the eSport scene, since SC2, they have downgraded balance and eSport hype for WoW.
for he to-day that sheds his blood with me
shall be my brother..."
There is actually a very good reason as to why they have taken the stance of not having eSport-level PvP in their various RPGs. Giving people an expectation that the game should be an eSport creates a situation where that expectation drives the development of the game. It became very evident while playing WoW and they even admit that they made the mistake of letting PvP drive the development of the game. In Diablo 3 they started out with the simple rule that PvP would be a casual feature of the game, so that any competitive play would be on the users to come up with. This keeps PvP from driving the development of the game and lets them focus on the RPG aspects...you know, because its an RPG and not a PvP centered game.
This doesn't mean we won't get PvP features. It just means that those features won't be designed around making PvP into an eSport. Classes will likely be relatively unbalanced in various ways, we likely won't see a ton of Arena customization, etc. However, we will see a lot more people interested in PvP due to the ability to jump right into a match that pairs you against people the system feels are roughly your skill level. This will appeal to a lot of players that would otherwise ignore PvP either due to experiences with D2 PvP or other such reasons. This move will net Blizzard more PvP players and improve PvM. Its a win-win.
Sorry, but its only likely to happen if players somehow make it happen via Arenas with little additional support from Blizzard. Blizzard has outright stated they have little intention of adding any feature that would primarily be for eSports. In addition to that, since gear plays a rather vital role on character strength and gear can be purchased via the RMAH, I highly doubt D3 will be taken seriously as a platform for large competitive venues specifically because of its more casual stance on PvP.
Maybe an underground sport, but I highly doubt it will ever be on the level of SC2 as in tournys held by Blizzard and whatnot. The only way for that to happen would be to make people in the arena wear specific gear, maybe ban some spells... it just wouldn't be Diablo.
I would.
PvE > PvP.
You an have all the PvP you want as long as you don't fucking touch my PvE.
edit: /thread?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_E452S_fJwA
for he to-day that sheds his blood with me
shall be my brother..."
I fail to see how them saying they don't want it to be an eSport will stop us... Now if there is no party system or custom games then yeah, PvP will blow donkey balls. I want to slay with my friends, if we want to slay with randoms in a competitve environment there's better games for that. Not having parties/custom invite PvP games will pretty much kill any chance of PvP in Diablo3 as an esport.
It definitely takes some skill, more then Diablo though? Maybe, I might give you that. You got your beginning of game where you gotta scout to determine build...then you have optimal build to beat said build...so follow that flowchart. Then middle game...again...scout and flowchart. Ok now late game...flowchart. SC2 is a ton of flowchart, X has created Y so I am going Z. Yea managing all of that is probably the only skill involved beyond microing your units correctly which also takes skill.
Now in Diablo you have to know matchups (Flow charts that move!), you have to use terrain to your advantage (Just like SC!), you have to aim your attacks(MICROING), and You have to dodge attacks(MICROING).
Id say both games take a good amount of skill and reflexes at high end, SC I will give the nod to because it has much more going on. However to say Diablo can't compete at an esport level is just plain wrong, and spoken like a person who didn't really PvP in Diablo congrats.
For the record, I don't want esports in D3, nor do I think it will happen. If it does it is because of the community and it could very well happen if they want and Blizzard really can't do shit about it.
It isn't about hard counters really? Might wanna learn the game buddy, it is ALL about countering your opponent. Yes microing definitely takes place at high end gameplay, but even great microing will lose to a hard counter from a medium player.
Well then, I am confident that you will be able to stomp me in the arena or even D2 for that matter because moving your character and aiming are nonskill based actions correct? Damn where have I seen that gameplay from....oh yea kinda like a FPS. So FPS are non skill games...wait isn't quake a shooter? Ok that won't work..so knowing match ups and utilizing zoning tactics...that is kinda like a fighter...but that doesn't take skill either right?