A games difficulty is in its learning curve, and then the skill of the opponent played. Comparing games outside of genres in regards to difficulty is stupid? This is why a lot of pros don't jump genre to genre, but stay inside there professional "bubble".
Further, years of playing a certain type of game, actually make your brain change and adapt to the style of game you play. Read an article when I was studying cognitive psychology about FPS and it's affects on the brain. Gamers who specialize in playing FPS games can make more 'critical decision' with a higher accuracy rate, given little time to respond. This coincides with that happens in a FPS game. You have fractions of a second to respond to a situation, or you die. Yeah there is a lot of strat and skill that goes into playing team based FPS, but what it comes down to is a gunfight, and those are over in a second.
This is probly the case for MMO, RTS, Fighting games etc. Years of playing them day in and day out changes your brain to be more efficient in their play style.
There are probably some great pro gamers that can bounce between genres, but for the most part you just see a transition from gamers inside the genre. You will see MOBA players shuffle around from game to game, sc to sc2, fighter gamers bounce around between mortal combat, street fighter etc.
Here is an example
Chu
"Comes out of nowhere with a competitively viable meepo, who I think was considered nothing but a pubstomper.
Goes to HoN, considered best player for some time.
Goes to LoL, uses Maokai, a character who was previously considered trash tier. Becomes highest MMR-equivilent or something in LoL (basically the best player).
Comes back to HoN for afaik a mediocre showing in Dreamhack (outside of some big plays)
Goes back to LoL, for it is good to be the king."
You guys are trying to compare apples to oranges, the only comparison to draw between d3 and sc, is that they are both made by blizzard, and they are both video games. That's it.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"...We few, we happy few, we band of brothers; for he to-day that sheds his blood with me
shall be my brother..."
So long as you have power in a game it should not become an esport. Not only are they going to spend minimal amounts of time on d3 pvp balance in general, having 5+ classes with broken gear earned from credit card and killing monsters is not a good platform for competitive play.
I'm all for more pvp functionality in d3 but I'll keep playing sc2 if I want to play a game capable and worthy of being an esport.
So long as you have power in a game it should not become an esport. Not only are they going to spend minimal amounts of time on d3 pvp balance in general, having 5+ classes with broken gear earned from credit card and killing monsters is not a good platform for competitive play.
I'm all for more pvp functionality in d3 but I'll keep playing sc2 if I want to play a game capable and worthy of being an esport.
You can buy league placement in sc2 if you know where to look (not 1v1 obv) you can buy "perceived" power in any game.
I beat noobs all the time in games that have way better gear than me. Gear only takes you so far my friend.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"...We few, we happy few, we band of brothers; for he to-day that sheds his blood with me
shall be my brother..."
So long as you have power in a game it should not become an esport. Not only are they going to spend minimal amounts of time on d3 pvp balance in general, having 5+ classes with broken gear earned from credit card and killing monsters is not a good platform for competitive play.
I'm all for more pvp functionality in d3 but I'll keep playing sc2 if I want to play a game capable and worthy of being an esport.
You can buy league placement in sc2 if you know where to look (not 1v1 obv) you can buy "perceived" power in any game.
I beat noobs all the time in games that have way better gear than me. Gear only takes you so far my friend.
Power and imbalance (like fotm) can still take you at least that far. It's an innate advantage before combat even begins, whether you're able to make use of it or not and regardless of the extent you're able to do so. I have beaten better equipped players many times, but I have also lost arena matches I had no business losing because I was in greens and the guys in the other pin were in gear which could just facetank me for a minute and kill me in a second.
It only takes you so far, but if you ask me it's no paper thin margin in an RPG. Gear also causes other complications for pvp such as RNG, it's hard to take it seriously when two people are on opposite sides of the same coin (in a mirror match with the same exact skill and gear for instance) but one guy is landing crit after crit after crit while the other keeps on getting dodged and parried and hitting for normal minimum damage.
So long as you have power in a game it should not become an esport. Not only are they going to spend minimal amounts of time on d3 pvp balance in general, having 5+ classes with broken gear earned from credit card and killing monsters is not a good platform for competitive play.
I'm all for more pvp functionality in d3 but I'll keep playing sc2 if I want to play a game capable and worthy of being an esport.
You can buy league placement in sc2 if you know where to look (not 1v1 obv) you can buy "perceived" power in any game.
I beat noobs all the time in games that have way better gear than me. Gear only takes you so far my friend.
Power and imbalance (like fotm) can still take you at least that far. It's an innate advantage before combat even begins, whether you're able to make use of it or not and regardless of the extent you're able to do so. I have beaten better equipped players many times, but I have also lost arena matches I had no business losing because I was in greens and the guys in the other pin were in gear which could just facetank me for a minute and kill me in a second.
It only takes you so far, but if you ask me it's no paper thin margin in an RPG. Gear also causes other complications for pvp such as RNG, it's hard to take it seriously when two people are on opposite sides of the same coin (in a mirror match with the same exact skill and gear for instance) but one guy is landing crit after crit after crit while the other keeps on getting dodged and parried and hitting for normal minimum damage.
it all balances out in the wash and skill prevails.
(inc numbers that are just to make a point)
If the opponent has 1k attack and is at a 1600 PSR/MMR, and you have 800 attack and you face him. He barely beats you, what happens when you get 1k and fight that some kid? You stomp him into oblivion. All bad players purchasing gear does is pad stats, it doesnt make them good. Why anyone is worried about this is beyond me. He buys something with irl money, you buy something with gold. Current polls show most wont even buy from the RMAH, just sell on it.
All buying gear with using RMAH is doing, is delaying the inevitable, when the time will come when someone fights them with equal gear, and will be way higher skilled. You can always buy power in any game, but you can never buy skill. This argument on it being a diablo thing because of the RMAH is a dead horse beating.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"...We few, we happy few, we band of brothers; for he to-day that sheds his blood with me
shall be my brother..."
I'm just telling you why it shouldn't be considered a legit esport, not why the ranking system doesn't work. I'm pointing at wow and its short and declining life as an esport to make that point. The part about buying power wasn't an underlying point, it was just to show that power wasn't even necessarily a time investment, as if that should be a requirement for something to be an esport in the first place...
In wow tournaments they give you premade characters and allow you to use various items of your choosing so that power isn't a factor. Despite this FOTM (flavor of the month, or overpowering class-compositions) always exists unless it's a mirror match, and even if it is you can still lose to people of lesser skill through the process of Random Number Generation as I detailed in the post above.
Was also suggesting that arena and pvp will recieve record low balancing from blizzard because they don't want the game to become an esport, specifically pointed out during a blizzcon. They don't want to do the work and make the "sacrifices" involved in order to make it happen. So it wouldn't even be nearly as balanced as wow from the get go.
I have no problem if blizzard allows people to organize private pvp matches (and thus the creation of community based tournaments) and people make up their own rules or lack thereof, in fact I hope this is the case, but I'm simply detailing a few points as to why d3 will not become an esport.
Looks like they've kept their stance on PvP in Diablo 3.
Their stance on diablo becoming an esport platform, not pvp. In other words the kinds of discussions we've been having here in the pvp forums (for the most part maybe this topic aside) are not going to stop because there is no reason for them to because what we've been discussing would not further esports.
Think about it. They already have their esport game SC2 with 2 planned expansions. SC2 leagues are picking up the old broodwar leagues and growing even now. There is hype, and the venues have been established. I'm not sure as to how sc2 being an esport grows blizz's revenue exactly but I know it has to, probably paid for the rights for starters.
Then they have their annual subscription MMO game, wow, and they found ways to make extra money with microtransactions therein. There have been 3 expansions thus for with at least another 2 on the way.
Now they have Diablo 3 which will make additional money through the RMAH with 2 planned expansions. I imagine that mass use of the RMAH will be key, and cosmetic DLC etc may be added in time... which means they will need to just have a large player base constantly fueling the economy bit by insignificant bit. This means the 25%+ pvp population that would otherwise quit after "beating the game" in each individual's definition needs to also be attended to.
They aren't going to make 3 esports games and have them compete with each other. They were terrified of diablo 3 killing wow as it was, remember all the surveys etc we got on that matter, let alone the annual pass feature?
One thing is for sure. (activision) blizzard knows exactly what they're doing. Each of these games has been designed to continue gathering revenue beyond box sales, and the games themselves are so popular and timeless that they continue to appear on store shelves for a decade and beyond once released. I saw sc2 was still the same price it was during launch, it's been a couple years.
I'm just telling you why it shouldn't be considered a legit esport, not why the ranking system doesn't work. I'm pointing at wow and its short and declining life as an esport to make that point. The part about buying power wasn't an underlying point, it was just to show that power wasn't even necessarily a time investment, as if that should be a requirement for something to be an esport in the first place...
In wow tournaments they give you premade characters and allow you to use various items of your choosing so that power isn't a factor. Despite this FOTM (flavor of the month, or overpowering class-compositions) always exists unless it's a mirror match, and even if it is you can still lose to people of lesser skill through the process of Random Number Generation as I detailed in the post above.
Was also suggesting that arena and pvp will recieve record low balancing from blizzard because they don't want the game to become an esport, specifically pointed out during a blizzcon. They don't want to do the work and make the "sacrifices" involved in order to make it happen. So it wouldn't even be nearly as balanced as wow from the get go.
I have no problem if blizzard allows people to organize private pvp matches (and thus the creation of community based tournaments) and people make up their own rules or lack thereof, in fact I hope this is the case, but I'm simply detailing a few points as to why d3 will not become an esport.
Welcome to PvP, where x beats y, y beats w, w beats z, z beats v etc etc etc. Throw 2,3,5 of them on a team against another 2,3,5 and you think you will achieve perfect balance?
There is always fotm because pros play it, and once it's seen by the world that "insert players" played "insert comp" everyone plays it. The example of chu I gave shows that pro players set whats viable and not viable 99% of the time. Top viable builds and comps on arena junkies etc.
Everyone said meepo was shit and you couldnt play him competitively.. Chu did it. Couldnt play Maoki, Chu did it.
in regards to your WoW example, I forget what season it was (within the last 2 years) resto druids were "shit" then some pro team comp comes in with a resto druid and rapes the fuck out of everyone. FOTM should be changed to "flavour of whatever the fuck the pro players deem as awesome" because that's often what happens.
I think it comes down to 3 things.
1. they dont want to compete against sc2 for viewer numbers/popularity
2. Wilson doesnt know how to balance for PvP/ have a desire to balance for PvP which has been evident in pretty much every statement he's made with the exception of him wanting a place for HC death duels
3. They have obviously become complacent with the development of this game, and as such game systems are cut and delayed left right and centre.
They already have the SNOWS/SNOES? in place to tweak abilities to behave differently in PvP vs PvE, all they would have to do is
Open PvP - No preset gear No eSport, play with friends, open que, duel, etc.
Closed PvP - preset gear, eSport (similar to gw2 pvp take)
Then put a PvP strike team on balance, done. They have dicked around too much with the development to be anywhere close to this occurring IF they wanted it to happen which they clearly dont, that would just mean more work, which they are already months behind in, to ship an unfinished product to patch it later to be a finished product. We have to wait post launch for just regular PvP, fuck it ever being even close to eSport level. 2-6 months for just regular PvP to be out..... it's just a joke.
I honestly dont know what they do over at blizzard, but Indie teams like GGG have put blizzards d3 dev team to shame
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"...We few, we happy few, we band of brothers; for he to-day that sheds his blood with me
shall be my brother..."
Diablo 3 will never become an e-sport. An e-sports game has to be watchable, it has to be nice to watch, make people show emotions, supports players. Would you like to watch some 2v2 or 3v3 arenas from upper view camera? I find WoW arenas sooooo boring, this would be even a bigger boredom. Want an e-sports game, go play Starcraft 2, it's extremely cool to watch, it has a great community, players are treated like celebrities, casters are known and their knowledge is decent, SC2 is the future of esports!
Why is it everytime an online game comes out people want it to be an esport - NO Blizzard wont be balancing this around you pvp scrubs.
I bet you have fun manipulating the systems in game. I bet you'll find most PvP'ers don't find it very entertaining to just beat the same content over and over and over. We need somthing to drive us to play the game more. Like beating the crap out of people in an arena and grinding gear to make that easier. Why this is bad? Or bad for Diablo 3?
I'll never understand the hate towards people who try and make somthing competitive, it's human nature. People throw a ball down a lane and knock shit over and get paid 100's of thousands of dollars to do so. Why shouldn't we have that in a game we enjoy? We can always throw skills out and balance things the best we can if Bliz won't help.
Diablo 3 will never become an e-sport. An e-sports game has to be watchable, it has to be nice to watch, make people show emotions, supports players. Would you like to watch some 2v2 or 3v3 arenas from upper view camera? I find WoW arenas sooooo boring, this would be even a bigger boredom. Want an e-sports game, go play Starcraft 2, it's extremely cool to watch, it has a great community, players are treated like celebrities, casters are known and their knowledge is decent, SC2 is the future of esports!
Oh? and Halo 3, CoDBO was ohhh ssooo emotion filled and "fun to watch". An eSport game has to make profit, and have a strong PvP player base that will follow it, that's it.
Keldaur if you would of looked at anything ive posted here, I've already discussed how comparing difficulty between games is idiotic, how gear can be dealt with for balance, how they already have SNOWS/SNOES? in place to allow different skills to behave in different ways, and as far as Arena being boring to watch, meh. I've watched some good ones, some bad ones. I could say the same argument about watching an sc2 match? Some will find it boring, because it's not their cup of tea.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"...We few, we happy few, we band of brothers; for he to-day that sheds his blood with me
shall be my brother..."
Diablo 3 will never become an e-sport. An e-sports game has to be watchable, it has to be nice to watch, make people show emotions, supports players. Would you like to watch some 2v2 or 3v3 arenas from upper view camera? I find WoW arenas sooooo boring, this would be even a bigger boredom. Want an e-sports game, go play Starcraft 2, it's extremely cool to watch, it has a great community, players are treated like celebrities, casters are known and their knowledge is decent, SC2 is the future of esports!
*SC2 along with Dota 2, and CS:GO is the future of eSports! fixed for accuracy for you
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"...We few, we happy few, we band of brothers; for he to-day that sheds his blood with me
shall be my brother..."
Well nobody knows anything we are all just throwing out our opinions. All the flaws or facts posted I believe can be fixed or are not an issue at all.
I believe this thread had evolved beyond eSports because everyone keeps posting the same videos, and frankly I don't care what Blizzard says. It is our game they make it for us, the community. To the PvE's we can have both. So stay out of our way because we are defiantly out of your way and Blizzard will make sure of that.
PvP has to be as competitive as it can be other wise whats the point? They are even taking out the competitiveness in PvE by not giving us a world first achievement and letting China play 12 hours before everyone else. So no race to 60.
Wether or not Diablo will be a fun or even a viable eSports, only time will tell. I would compete in and watch tournaments.
I just don't think Jay Wilson is a competitive person at all. I agree with all of the pro PvP posts. As I have said before I believe that we can have both, but Jay Wilson doesn't want too.
They have stated multiple, multiple times that D3 will NOT be an e-sport and they will NOT be balancing around PvP.
/thread
They have no control over it being an eSport, lesser shittier balanced games have become an eSport.
"We know people are going to want to turn it into an eSport, we know that... like, but it's not going to be from any encouragement from us..." The mouth of JW himself.
If there is enough support for it, the PvP community will turn it into an eSport themselves. So you kiddies can stop coming in and saying
/thread
just because blizzard wont support it as an eSport with feature sets, does not mean it will not become an eSport.Look at LoL, they STILL dont have the eSport feature set even comparable to HoN or DotA, and they payed there way onto the eSports scene, but they are there, with the lesser skill cap of the three MOBA giants, and little to no eSports features.
As I've said before, all a game needs is popularity and a large enough pvp crowd, and a profit, and a game will create an eSport. people have this unrealistic vision that only super balanced games become eSports, which is far, far, far, far from the truth. Replays? spectator mode? Downloadable replays? Pause system for disc players? I haven't touched LoL since i got my Dota 2 invite in Oct, but LoL lacked all those eSport feature sets, AND balance, and a high skill cap like its competition. It's on the scene for one reason only POPULARITY.
If you're going to come in an talk about PvP that's fine, if you're going to come in and try to talk about eSports, that's fine, if you know wtf you're talking about. If you dont you're adding NOTHING to the conversation, zip, zero, zilch, nadda.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"...We few, we happy few, we band of brothers; for he to-day that sheds his blood with me
shall be my brother..."
They have stated multiple, multiple times that D3 will NOT be an e-sport and they will NOT be balancing around PvP.
/thread
They have no control over it being an eSport, lesser shittier balanced games have become an eSport.
"We know people are going to want to turn it into an eSport, we know that... like, but it's not going to be from any encouragement from us..." The mouth of JW himself.
If there is enough support for it, the PvP community will turn it into an eSport themselves. So you kiddies can stop coming in and saying
/thread
just because blizzard wont support it as an eSport with feature sets, does not mean it will not become an eSport.Look at LoL, they STILL dont have the eSport feature set even comparable to HoN or DotA, and they payed there way onto the eSports scene, but they are there, with the lesser skill cap of the three MOBA giants, and little to no eSports features.
As I've said before, all a game needs is popularity and a large enough pvp crowd, and a profit, and a game will create an eSport. people have this unrealistic vision that only super balanced games become eSports, which is far, far, far, far from the truth. Replays? spectator mode? Downloadable replays? Pause system for disc players? I haven't touched LoL since i got my Dota 2 invite in Oct, but LoL lacked all those eSport feature sets, AND balance, and a high skill cap like its competition. It's on the scene for one reason only POPULARITY.
If you're going to come in an talk about PvP that's fine, if you're going to come in and try to talk about eSports, that's fine, if you know wtf you're talking about. If you dont you're adding NOTHING to the conversation, zip, zero, zilch, nadda.
The fuck are you talking about. Lesser, shittier games have become e-Sports? Like what game? D3 will not be an e-Sport. It won't be balanced. It won't be supported. What's there not to understand?
And actually, you couldn't be more wrong about LoL. It's on the scene because the creators of the game offer huge prize pools for its fucking tournaments! The e-Sports portion of LoL is supported by the creators of the game - THAT'S why it exists. Not because it's popular. Holy christ. People see they can win $$ and serious gamers go there to get it. Even HoN is the same way. S2 has a head of e-Sports development employed on their staff. Even DotA2 is the same. The first DotA2 tournament was a $1m tournament hosted and funded by who? OH RIGHT. BY VALVE.
You think these games just "become" e-Sports? No. That only happens for games like Counter-Strike, which are inherently balanced because of the game type. They become e-Sports because the creators of the game encourage it and fund it. Something Blizzard will NOT be doing with D3. For a game to become an e-Sport, there must be $$ involved - and lots of it. Sponsors have to be found, tournaments have to be set up, and there has to be interest among high level gamers. I got news for you, high-end PvP in D3 does not interest serious gamers because Blizzard has stated they won't balance around it. At least other games give the impression that they are trying to balance around the competitive aspect of their game.
Why don't we turn this into a more productive thread. Let's talk about things that PvP needs and what is practical.
I think it needs a ranking system that we can use. Also we need to be able to set up our own matches. There needs to be a spectator view and a theater mode, to save and replay matches. All of this seems doable to me, it would just take time.
Having different scenarios for the arenas would be cool. Such as Teem Death Match, Free for All, Last Man Standing and others.
As for gear I don't think it is going to have huge impact. I would assume that top tier gear would level out, where everyones gear would be about the same. Since PvP is not coming out till the end of 2012 we have all that time to get that gear. Who knows though, we will have to wait for the game to come out.
As for the individual character balances, we will have to see if it is unbalanced as every says it will be. They can easily change stats and effects of skills in arenas. If that doesn't work I am fine with the Rock, paper, scissors balancing.
If you have something to add please do, just elaborate on it. If your not going to contribute to this thread then don't post.
Why don't we turn this into a more productive thread. Let's talk about things that PvP needs and what is practical.
I think it needs a ranking system that we can use. Also we need to be able to set up our own matches. There needs to be a spectator view and a theater mode, to save and replay matches. All of this seems doable to me, it would just take time.
Having different scenarios for the arenas would be cool. Such as Teem Death Match, Free for All, Last Man Standing and others.
As for gear I don't think it is going to have huge impact. I would assume that top tier gear would level out, where everyones gear would be about the same. Since PvP is not coming out till the end of 2012 we have all that time to get that gear. Who knows though, we will have to wait for the game to come out.
As for the individual character balances, we will have to see if it is unbalanced as every says it will be. They can easily change stats and effects of skills in arenas. If that doesn't work I am fine with the Rock, paper, scissors balancing.
If you have something to add please do, just elaborate on it. If your not going to contribute to this thread then don't post.
A public ranking system is out of the question, Blizzard has stated that already. The additional features you suggest are purely eSport and competitive PvP related features that Blizzard again has specifically stated that the game isn't designed that way.
I do agree on the different game~modes for Arena. I would love to see a few different types of PvP available.
As for game balance, many skills work in a way that would make them incredibly powerful in PvP. Changing how these abilities work inherently will confused players. Any balance changes for PvP should be limited to disable duration and maybe slight damage tweaks.
Further, years of playing a certain type of game, actually make your brain change and adapt to the style of game you play. Read an article when I was studying cognitive psychology about FPS and it's affects on the brain. Gamers who specialize in playing FPS games can make more 'critical decision' with a higher accuracy rate, given little time to respond. This coincides with that happens in a FPS game. You have fractions of a second to respond to a situation, or you die. Yeah there is a lot of strat and skill that goes into playing team based FPS, but what it comes down to is a gunfight, and those are over in a second.
This is probly the case for MMO, RTS, Fighting games etc. Years of playing them day in and day out changes your brain to be more efficient in their play style.
There are probably some great pro gamers that can bounce between genres, but for the most part you just see a transition from gamers inside the genre. You will see MOBA players shuffle around from game to game, sc to sc2, fighter gamers bounce around between mortal combat, street fighter etc.
Here is an example
Chu
"Comes out of nowhere with a competitively viable meepo, who I think was considered nothing but a pubstomper.
Goes to HoN, considered best player for some time.
Goes to LoL, uses Maokai, a character who was previously considered trash tier. Becomes highest MMR-equivilent or something in LoL (basically the best player).
Comes back to HoN for afaik a mediocre showing in Dreamhack (outside of some big plays)
Goes back to LoL, for it is good to be the king."
You guys are trying to compare apples to oranges, the only comparison to draw between d3 and sc, is that they are both made by blizzard, and they are both video games. That's it.
for he to-day that sheds his blood with me
shall be my brother..."
I'm all for more pvp functionality in d3 but I'll keep playing sc2 if I want to play a game capable and worthy of being an esport.
You can buy league placement in sc2 if you know where to look (not 1v1 obv) you can buy "perceived" power in any game.
I beat noobs all the time in games that have way better gear than me. Gear only takes you so far my friend.
for he to-day that sheds his blood with me
shall be my brother..."
Power and imbalance (like fotm) can still take you at least that far. It's an innate advantage before combat even begins, whether you're able to make use of it or not and regardless of the extent you're able to do so. I have beaten better equipped players many times, but I have also lost arena matches I had no business losing because I was in greens and the guys in the other pin were in gear which could just facetank me for a minute and kill me in a second.
It only takes you so far, but if you ask me it's no paper thin margin in an RPG. Gear also causes other complications for pvp such as RNG, it's hard to take it seriously when two people are on opposite sides of the same coin (in a mirror match with the same exact skill and gear for instance) but one guy is landing crit after crit after crit while the other keeps on getting dodged and parried and hitting for normal minimum damage.
it all balances out in the wash and skill prevails.
(inc numbers that are just to make a point)
If the opponent has 1k attack and is at a 1600 PSR/MMR, and you have 800 attack and you face him. He barely beats you, what happens when you get 1k and fight that some kid? You stomp him into oblivion. All bad players purchasing gear does is pad stats, it doesnt make them good. Why anyone is worried about this is beyond me. He buys something with irl money, you buy something with gold. Current polls show most wont even buy from the RMAH, just sell on it.
All buying gear with using RMAH is doing, is delaying the inevitable, when the time will come when someone fights them with equal gear, and will be way higher skilled. You can always buy power in any game, but you can never buy skill. This argument on it being a diablo thing because of the RMAH is a dead horse beating.
for he to-day that sheds his blood with me
shall be my brother..."
In wow tournaments they give you premade characters and allow you to use various items of your choosing so that power isn't a factor. Despite this FOTM (flavor of the month, or overpowering class-compositions) always exists unless it's a mirror match, and even if it is you can still lose to people of lesser skill through the process of Random Number Generation as I detailed in the post above.
Was also suggesting that arena and pvp will recieve record low balancing from blizzard because they don't want the game to become an esport, specifically pointed out during a blizzcon. They don't want to do the work and make the "sacrifices" involved in order to make it happen. So it wouldn't even be nearly as balanced as wow from the get go.
I have no problem if blizzard allows people to organize private pvp matches (and thus the creation of community based tournaments) and people make up their own rules or lack thereof, in fact I hope this is the case, but I'm simply detailing a few points as to why d3 will not become an esport.
Looks like they've kept their stance on PvP in Diablo 3.
Their stance on diablo becoming an esport platform, not pvp. In other words the kinds of discussions we've been having here in the pvp forums (for the most part maybe this topic aside) are not going to stop because there is no reason for them to because what we've been discussing would not further esports.
Think about it. They already have their esport game SC2 with 2 planned expansions. SC2 leagues are picking up the old broodwar leagues and growing even now. There is hype, and the venues have been established. I'm not sure as to how sc2 being an esport grows blizz's revenue exactly but I know it has to, probably paid for the rights for starters.
Then they have their annual subscription MMO game, wow, and they found ways to make extra money with microtransactions therein. There have been 3 expansions thus for with at least another 2 on the way.
Now they have Diablo 3 which will make additional money through the RMAH with 2 planned expansions. I imagine that mass use of the RMAH will be key, and cosmetic DLC etc may be added in time... which means they will need to just have a large player base constantly fueling the economy bit by insignificant bit. This means the 25%+ pvp population that would otherwise quit after "beating the game" in each individual's definition needs to also be attended to.
They aren't going to make 3 esports games and have them compete with each other. They were terrified of diablo 3 killing wow as it was, remember all the surveys etc we got on that matter, let alone the annual pass feature?
One thing is for sure. (activision) blizzard knows exactly what they're doing. Each of these games has been designed to continue gathering revenue beyond box sales, and the games themselves are so popular and timeless that they continue to appear on store shelves for a decade and beyond once released. I saw sc2 was still the same price it was during launch, it's been a couple years.
Welcome to PvP, where x beats y, y beats w, w beats z, z beats v etc etc etc. Throw 2,3,5 of them on a team against another 2,3,5 and you think you will achieve perfect balance?
There is always fotm because pros play it, and once it's seen by the world that "insert players" played "insert comp" everyone plays it. The example of chu I gave shows that pro players set whats viable and not viable 99% of the time. Top viable builds and comps on arena junkies etc.
Everyone said meepo was shit and you couldnt play him competitively.. Chu did it. Couldnt play Maoki, Chu did it.
in regards to your WoW example, I forget what season it was (within the last 2 years) resto druids were "shit" then some pro team comp comes in with a resto druid and rapes the fuck out of everyone. FOTM should be changed to "flavour of whatever the fuck the pro players deem as awesome" because that's often what happens.
I think it comes down to 3 things.
1. they dont want to compete against sc2 for viewer numbers/popularity
2. Wilson doesnt know how to balance for PvP/ have a desire to balance for PvP which has been evident in pretty much every statement he's made with the exception of him wanting a place for HC death duels
3. They have obviously become complacent with the development of this game, and as such game systems are cut and delayed left right and centre.
They already have the SNOWS/SNOES? in place to tweak abilities to behave differently in PvP vs PvE, all they would have to do is
Open PvP - No preset gear No eSport, play with friends, open que, duel, etc.
Closed PvP - preset gear, eSport (similar to gw2 pvp take)
Then put a PvP strike team on balance, done. They have dicked around too much with the development to be anywhere close to this occurring IF they wanted it to happen which they clearly dont, that would just mean more work, which they are already months behind in, to ship an unfinished product to patch it later to be a finished product. We have to wait post launch for just regular PvP, fuck it ever being even close to eSport level. 2-6 months for just regular PvP to be out..... it's just a joke.
I honestly dont know what they do over at blizzard, but Indie teams like GGG have put blizzards d3 dev team to shame
for he to-day that sheds his blood with me
shall be my brother..."
I bet you have fun manipulating the systems in game. I bet you'll find most PvP'ers don't find it very entertaining to just beat the same content over and over and over. We need somthing to drive us to play the game more. Like beating the crap out of people in an arena and grinding gear to make that easier. Why this is bad? Or bad for Diablo 3?
I'll never understand the hate towards people who try and make somthing competitive, it's human nature. People throw a ball down a lane and knock shit over and get paid 100's of thousands of dollars to do so. Why shouldn't we have that in a game we enjoy? We can always throw skills out and balance things the best we can if Bliz won't help.
Oh? and Halo 3, CoDBO was ohhh ssooo emotion filled and "fun to watch". An eSport game has to make profit, and have a strong PvP player base that will follow it, that's it.
Keldaur if you would of looked at anything ive posted here, I've already discussed how comparing difficulty between games is idiotic, how gear can be dealt with for balance, how they already have SNOWS/SNOES? in place to allow different skills to behave in different ways, and as far as Arena being boring to watch, meh. I've watched some good ones, some bad ones. I could say the same argument about watching an sc2 match? Some will find it boring, because it's not their cup of tea.
for he to-day that sheds his blood with me
shall be my brother..."
*SC2 along with Dota 2, and CS:GO is the future of eSports! fixed for accuracy for you
for he to-day that sheds his blood with me
shall be my brother..."
/thread
I believe this thread had evolved beyond eSports because everyone keeps posting the same videos, and frankly I don't care what Blizzard says. It is our game they make it for us, the community. To the PvE's we can have both. So stay out of our way because we are defiantly out of your way and Blizzard will make sure of that.
PvP has to be as competitive as it can be other wise whats the point? They are even taking out the competitiveness in PvE by not giving us a world first achievement and letting China play 12 hours before everyone else. So no race to 60.
Wether or not Diablo will be a fun or even a viable eSports, only time will tell. I would compete in and watch tournaments.
I just don't think Jay Wilson is a competitive person at all. I agree with all of the pro PvP posts. As I have said before I believe that we can have both, but Jay Wilson doesn't want too.
They have no control over it being an eSport, lesser shittier balanced games have become an eSport.
"We know people are going to want to turn it into an eSport, we know that... like, but it's not going to be from any encouragement from us..." The mouth of JW himself.
If there is enough support for it, the PvP community will turn it into an eSport themselves. So you kiddies can stop coming in and saying
/thread
just because blizzard wont support it as an eSport with feature sets, does not mean it will not become an eSport.Look at LoL, they STILL dont have the eSport feature set even comparable to HoN or DotA, and they payed there way onto the eSports scene, but they are there, with the lesser skill cap of the three MOBA giants, and little to no eSports features.
As I've said before, all a game needs is popularity and a large enough pvp crowd, and a profit, and a game will create an eSport. people have this unrealistic vision that only super balanced games become eSports, which is far, far, far, far from the truth. Replays? spectator mode? Downloadable replays? Pause system for disc players? I haven't touched LoL since i got my Dota 2 invite in Oct, but LoL lacked all those eSport feature sets, AND balance, and a high skill cap like its competition. It's on the scene for one reason only POPULARITY.
If you're going to come in an talk about PvP that's fine, if you're going to come in and try to talk about eSports, that's fine, if you know wtf you're talking about. If you dont you're adding NOTHING to the conversation, zip, zero, zilch, nadda.
for he to-day that sheds his blood with me
shall be my brother..."
The fuck are you talking about. Lesser, shittier games have become e-Sports? Like what game? D3 will not be an e-Sport. It won't be balanced. It won't be supported. What's there not to understand?
And actually, you couldn't be more wrong about LoL. It's on the scene because the creators of the game offer huge prize pools for its fucking tournaments! The e-Sports portion of LoL is supported by the creators of the game - THAT'S why it exists. Not because it's popular. Holy christ. People see they can win $$ and serious gamers go there to get it. Even HoN is the same way. S2 has a head of e-Sports development employed on their staff. Even DotA2 is the same. The first DotA2 tournament was a $1m tournament hosted and funded by who? OH RIGHT. BY VALVE.
You think these games just "become" e-Sports? No. That only happens for games like Counter-Strike, which are inherently balanced because of the game type. They become e-Sports because the creators of the game encourage it and fund it. Something Blizzard will NOT be doing with D3. For a game to become an e-Sport, there must be $$ involved - and lots of it. Sponsors have to be found, tournaments have to be set up, and there has to be interest among high level gamers. I got news for you, high-end PvP in D3 does not interest serious gamers because Blizzard has stated they won't balance around it. At least other games give the impression that they are trying to balance around the competitive aspect of their game.
fucking /thread.
I think it needs a ranking system that we can use. Also we need to be able to set up our own matches. There needs to be a spectator view and a theater mode, to save and replay matches. All of this seems doable to me, it would just take time.
Having different scenarios for the arenas would be cool. Such as Teem Death Match, Free for All, Last Man Standing and others.
As for gear I don't think it is going to have huge impact. I would assume that top tier gear would level out, where everyones gear would be about the same. Since PvP is not coming out till the end of 2012 we have all that time to get that gear. Who knows though, we will have to wait for the game to come out.
As for the individual character balances, we will have to see if it is unbalanced as every says it will be. They can easily change stats and effects of skills in arenas. If that doesn't work I am fine with the Rock, paper, scissors balancing.
If you have something to add please do, just elaborate on it. If your not going to contribute to this thread then don't post.
A public ranking system is out of the question, Blizzard has stated that already. The additional features you suggest are purely eSport and competitive PvP related features that Blizzard again has specifically stated that the game isn't designed that way.
I do agree on the different game~modes for Arena. I would love to see a few different types of PvP available.
As for game balance, many skills work in a way that would make them incredibly powerful in PvP. Changing how these abilities work inherently will confused players. Any balance changes for PvP should be limited to disable duration and maybe slight damage tweaks.