I'm confused. Don't most Archon builds use Prismatic Armor? Wouldn't nerfing Energy Armor affect Archon too, when the two defense buffs are stacking together?
This change will make it less dangerous to let Energy Armor drop off while Archon is active, or to even just ignore it and go with another skill to increase damage.
The thoughts are that while the armor and resist bonuses on Energy Armor and Prismatic Armor have been reduced, the armor and resists on Archon might not be changed, so the 25% less damage mobs do is evened out with changes to EA and PA, but when you're in Archon form, you get an effective 25% increase to EHP compared to now because of the lack of changes to Archon form.
The thoughts are that while the armor and resist bonuses on Energy Armor and Prismatic Armor have been reduced, the armor and resists on Archon might not be changed, so the 25% less damage mobs do is evened out with changes to EA and PA, but when you're in Archon form, you get an effective 25% increase to EHP compared to now because of the lack of changes to Archon form.
Exactly. Essentially it would lower the defensive requirements to run an archon build by a fair margin, which makes the gear for it an order of magnitude less expensive (because gear with good offensive stats is an order of magnitude more common than gear with good offensive stats AND good EHP stats).
Archon can clear the high density areas generally faster than CM can already at the high end of gear, and can get higher DPS at most price points because it isn't weighting its gear heavily towards max crit chance combined with EHP stats, and doesn't need a high threshold of APoC to run properly, so even without a nerf to Storm Chaser its likely the build of choice if archon's EHP scaling goes unnerfed.
I'm confused. Don't most Archon builds use Prismatic Armor? Wouldn't nerfing Energy Armor affect Archon too, when the two defense buffs are stacking together?
This change will make it less dangerous to let Energy Armor drop off while Archon is active, or to even just ignore it and go with another skill to increase damage.
The thoughts are that while the armor and resist bonuses on Energy Armor and Prismatic Armor have been reduced, the armor and resists on Archon might not be changed, so the 25% less damage mobs do is evened out with changes to EA and PA, but when you're in Archon form, you get an effective 25% increase to EHP compared to now because of the lack of changes to Archon form.
Your logic is... flawed. Because the armor/res boost from Archon stacks directly with the armor/res boost from EA/Pris, a nerf to one is a nerf to the combination.
In patch 1.0.4, the 65% from Energy armor is added to the 40% from Archon, resulting in 105% armor boost. After the nerf, the 35% from Energy Armor will be added to the 40% from Archon, resulting in 75% armor boost. Similarly, the current version gives 40% resist from EA and 40% from Archon, for 80% Resistance boost. After the change, the 25% from prismatic armor adds to the 40% from Archon for 65% resistance.
Ready for some math? Let's use the same numbers and examples in the developer blog:
You start with 6000 armor and 800 resist before any buffs, against a lvl 63 enemy.
In 1.0.4 this results in 12300 Armor and 1640 Resist, for a total of 96.71% damage reduction (the calculator I found doesn't give them separately but the math still works out.)
After 1.0.5 this results in 10500 Armor and 1320 Resist, for a total of 95.55% damage reduction.
Suppose a 50,000 damage monster hit, the damage taken goes from 1645 to 2225.
This means that for the damage to remain the same, monster damage would have to be lowered by 26.07% (1645/2225=73.93%)
If they only reduce the damage monsters do in Inferno by 25%, we will end up taking ~1% more damage when using both Prismatic Armor and Archon.
Of course, this means that Archon on its own is SIGNIFICANTLY stronger. It also means that letting Prismatic Armor drop is not going to be nearly as dangerous. But when you have both armor buffs active, the nerf to EA and Prismatic Armor is going to be felt by Archon form just as much if not more than other builds.
Your logic is... flawed. Because the armor/res boost from Archon stacks directly with the armor/res boost from EA/Pris, a nerf to one is a nerf to the combination.
In patch 1.0.4, the 65% from Energy armor is added to the 40% from Archon, resulting in 105% armor boost. After the nerf, the 35% from Energy Armor will be added to the 40% from Archon, resulting in 75% armor boost. Similarly, the current version gives 40% resist from EA and 40% from Archon, for 80% Resistance boost. After the change, the 25% from prismatic armor adds to the 40% from Archon for 65% resistance.
Ready for some math? Let's use the same numbers and examples in the developer blog:
You start with 6000 armor and 800 resist before any buffs, against a lvl 63 enemy.
In 1.0.4 this results in 12300 Armor and 1640 Resist, for a total of 96.71% damage reduction (the calculator I found doesn't give them separately but the math still works out.)
After 1.0.5 this results in 10500 Armor and 1320 Resist, for a total of 95.55% damage reduction.
Suppose a 50,000 damage monster hit, the damage taken goes from 1645 to 2225.
This means that for the damage to remain the same, monster damage would have to be lowered by 26.07% (1645/2225=73.93%)
If they only reduce the damage monsters do in Inferno by 25%, we will end up taking ~1% more damage when using both Prismatic Armor and Archon.
Of course, this means that Archon on its own is SIGNIFICANTLY stronger. It also means that letting Prismatic Armor drop is not going to be nearly as dangerous. But when you have both armor buffs active, the nerf to EA and Prismatic Armor is going to be felt by Archon form just as much if not more than other builds.
When you say the Archon and EA/PA buffs stack directly, it is a little misleading. Your math is correct in that the values are additive, so in essence Archon is independent of EA and PA.
Also, your math is a little flawed. You use 2.05 for your resistance coefficient instead of 1.8, which makes a HUGE difference.
Quick math
50k hit, 6k base armor 800 base resists.
1.0.4
No Archon, you take 2649 damage
With Archon you take 1830 damage
1.0.5, before 25% nerf
No Archon, you take 3354 damage
With Archon you take 2223 damage
Comparison, 1.0.4 value / 1.0.5 value
No Archon you need mobs to do 79% of current value
With Archon you need them to do 82% of current value
Thus in Archon you will take relatively less damage than before. My 25% more EHP in Archon form was not right and it seems more like 3-4% more, roughly, for this example. Another way to look at it is the armor difference, as you mentioned, goes from 2.05 to 1.75 with Archon or 1.65 to 1.35 without. The nerf will reduce relative armor by 22% with just Force Armor, but only 17% with Archon. Similarly resists with PA will be reduced by 12% without Archon but only 9.1% in Archon form.
On a side note, I might be calculating the inferno nerf differently than they are implementing it. When I see a 25% nerf to damage, I was of the impression they are dividing current damage by 1.25. Based on the blue post, it sounds like they're instead multiplying it by (1-0.25). This means the damage nerf would be more severe than I was anticipating, and the previous nerf might also be more severe, so that the EHP threshholds might be lower than previously calculated. The difference ends up being only a couple thousand EHP (102k currently vs 100k if I multiply by (1-NERF) instead of dividing by (1+NERF), so the thressholds are still close, but I'm no longer sure of their precision.
EDIT: for quick reference, the DR formula for Armor (A) and Resists ( R ) are
DRa = A/(A+63*50)
DRr =R/(R+63*5)
for a lvl 63 mob.
You're right, I looked at the wrong number when calculating resistances for 1.0.4 however, I did use the right number for 1.0.5
I used the wording in the blue post specifically because it was confusing on the actual implementation of the math.
The damage reduction calculator I used was found: http://messor.fi/D3/
(hopefully) correct math:
1.0.4 - 50,000 damage hit
No buff: 6000 armor, 800 resistance, 90.27% reduction, 4865 damage taken
EA+Pris: 9900 armor, 1120 resistance, 94.7% reduction, 2650 damage taken
Archon: 8400 armor, 1120 resistance, 94.01% reduction, 2995 damage taken
EA+Pris+Archon: 12300 armor, 1440 resistance, 96.34% reduction, 1830 damage taken
1.0.5 - 50,000 damage hit
No buff: 6000 armor, 800 resistance, 90.27% reduction, 4865 damage taken
EA+Pris: 8100 armor, 1000 resistance, 93.29% reduction, 3355 damage taken
Archon: 8400 armor, 1120 resistance, 94.01% reduction, 2995 damage taken
EA+Pris+Archon: 10500 armor, 1320 resistance, 95.55% reduction, 2225 damage taken
1830/2225=.822 So if archon remains the same, the end result is about 3% less damage taken. Am I interpreting that correctly?
Wild speculation, but if it is a straight 25% nerf to monster damage, that 50,000 damage hit will turn into 40,000. With the new EA and Archon unchanged, (40,000 * .0445=) 1780 damage taken. In this case, the actual damage taken is 190 damage less. or, 1780/1830=.9727 or 2.73% difference in damage taken. After all the nerfs, you could consider Archon is getting a 2.7% buff to defense.
Anyway, you proved me wrong that Archon will get more powerful with the nerf to incoming damage. However, I still maintain that it isn't a significant difference and not something that will suddenly make an Archon build OP.
You're right, I looked at the wrong number when calculating resistances for 1.0.4 however, I did use the right number for 1.0.5
I used the wording in the blue post specifically because it was confusing on the actual implementation of the math.
The damage reduction calculator I used was found: http://messor.fi/D3/
(hopefully) correct math:
1.0.4 - 50,000 damage hit
No buff: 6000 armor, 800 resistance, 90.27% reduction, 4865 damage taken
EA+Pris: 9900 armor, 1120 resistance, 94.7% reduction, 2650 damage taken
Archon: 8400 armor, 1120 resistance, 94.01% reduction, 2995 damage taken
EA+Pris+Archon: 12300 armor, 1440 resistance, 96.34% reduction, 1830 damage taken
1.0.5 - 50,000 damage hit
No buff: 6000 armor, 800 resistance, 90.27% reduction, 4865 damage taken
EA+Pris: 8100 armor, 1000 resistance, 93.29% reduction, 3355 damage taken
Archon: 8400 armor, 1120 resistance, 94.01% reduction, 2995 damage taken
EA+Pris+Archon: 10500 armor, 1320 resistance, 95.55% reduction, 2225 damage taken
1830/2225=.822 So if archon remains the same, the end result is about 3% less damage taken. Am I interpreting that correctly?
Wild speculation, but if it is a straight 25% nerf to monster damage, that 50,000 damage hit will turn into 40,000. With the new EA and Archon unchanged, (40,000 * .0445=) 1780 damage taken. In this case, the actual damage taken is 190 damage less. or, 1780/1830=.9727 or 2.73% difference in damage taken. After all the nerfs, you could consider Archon is getting a 2.7% buff to defense.
Anyway, you proved me wrong that Archon will get more powerful with the nerf to incoming damage. However, I still maintain that it isn't a significant difference and not something that will suddenly make an Archon build OP.
Yeah, it's not as significant as I had postulated. Still, it's like a relative buff of 3-4% EHP to Archon, so I'll take what I can get.
Regarding the mob damage nerf, I was originally thinking that would turn 50k to 40k hits but I think it might turn it into 37.5k based on the blue post and how they look at the 2650/3355 79% to mean elites need to do 79% of the current damage to make the skills remain as effective as they are now. If you replace the 40k with 50k*(0.79), and then apply the damage formula, you get that the mob does the same damage with the 1.0.5 values as the 50k hit with the current values, which is why I think they're applying the nerf as a form of damage reduction on the elites or on damage we take, or something like that. The differences between the two possible cases is a base damage of 2.5k which is around 6% difference between the two so it's small, but not completely insiginificant.
If you take Glass Cannon into account, which is chosen by most Archon players, it becomes:
(50k hit, 6k base armor 800 base resists, EA+Prism+GC)
1.0.4
No Archon, you take 2941 damage
With Archon you take 1995 damage :
=> Archon counts as a 32.17% dmg reduction.
1.0.5, before 25% nerf
No Archon, you take 3772 damage
With Archon you take 2445 damage
=> Archon counts as a 35.18% damage reduction
So yeah, ~3%. Not a big deal. But it's not my main point.
Now, let's do some very approximative "maths". If you consider that Archon builds
1) are the most efficient once viable because of the very nature of the beam (instant pew pew, no resource management)
2) become viable at a threshold of (DPS/mob life)/damage taken, also called "burn them before they burn you",
1.0.4 with Archon: 1995 damage
1.0.5 with Archon (.75 factor): 1833.
So we get a 8.12% "Archon threshold decrease". Not a good point for build diversity.
Probably switch to archon afterwards! death to cm wiz
It will not be a "death".
As things are being posted, If you want to play the default difficulty, then you can still do things with ease with cm... the problem is how hard will the mobs hit if you apply a certain number to the /player difficulty.
And about the Purgatorium, it seems to be the same bosses, same mechanics, way more damage.
I hope to see a challenge again in the game, but I don't want to feel cheated with the current nerfs...
Probably switch to archon afterwards! death to cm wiz
It will not be a "death".
As things are being posted, If you want to play the default difficulty, then you can still do things with ease with cm... the problem is how hard will the mobs hit if you apply a certain number to the /player difficulty.
And about the Purgatorium, it seems to be the same bosses, same mechanics, way more damage.
I hope to see a challenge again in the game, but I don't want to feel cheated with the current nerfs...
no it wont be the same thing, people are saying storm chaser will get a lower proc coeff. since the actual 50% is pretty nuts... try and play with wicked wind and tell me what you think...
Probably switch to archon afterwards! death to cm wiz
It will not be a "death".
As things are being posted, If you want to play the default difficulty, then you can still do things with ease with cm... the problem is how hard will the mobs hit if you apply a certain number to the /player difficulty.
And about the Purgatorium, it seems to be the same bosses, same mechanics, way more damage.
I hope to see a challenge again in the game, but I don't want to feel cheated with the current nerfs...
no it wont be the same thing, people are saying storm chaser will get a lower proc coeff. since the actual 50% is pretty nuts... try and play with wicked wind and tell me what you think...
Well, I do expect that nerf, but it might stay as it is, just because of the tornado movement that is unpredictable and a little bit unreliable when we are facing fewer mobs... I think blizzard would release a note on it... there are massive talks about SC nerf for quite sometime, and nothing came up...
If they come and adjust its coefficient, it might be under consideration running cm with like, 25 APOC minimum... I suck at the maths, but if we keep something near the cap of regen from crits, it wont hurt that much.
The thoughts are that while the armor and resist bonuses on Energy Armor and Prismatic Armor have been reduced, the armor and resists on Archon might not be changed, so the 25% less damage mobs do is evened out with changes to EA and PA, but when you're in Archon form, you get an effective 25% increase to EHP compared to now because of the lack of changes to Archon form.
Crusader DPS and EHP Spreadsheet, meant for Crusaders
My Wizard
Archon can clear the high density areas generally faster than CM can already at the high end of gear, and can get higher DPS at most price points because it isn't weighting its gear heavily towards max crit chance combined with EHP stats, and doesn't need a high threshold of APoC to run properly, so even without a nerf to Storm Chaser its likely the build of choice if archon's EHP scaling goes unnerfed.
Your logic is... flawed. Because the armor/res boost from Archon stacks directly with the armor/res boost from EA/Pris, a nerf to one is a nerf to the combination.
In patch 1.0.4, the 65% from Energy armor is added to the 40% from Archon, resulting in 105% armor boost. After the nerf, the 35% from Energy Armor will be added to the 40% from Archon, resulting in 75% armor boost. Similarly, the current version gives 40% resist from EA and 40% from Archon, for 80% Resistance boost. After the change, the 25% from prismatic armor adds to the 40% from Archon for 65% resistance.
Ready for some math? Let's use the same numbers and examples in the developer blog:
You start with 6000 armor and 800 resist before any buffs, against a lvl 63 enemy.
In 1.0.4 this results in 12300 Armor and 1640 Resist, for a total of 96.71% damage reduction (the calculator I found doesn't give them separately but the math still works out.)
After 1.0.5 this results in 10500 Armor and 1320 Resist, for a total of 95.55% damage reduction.
Suppose a 50,000 damage monster hit, the damage taken goes from 1645 to 2225.
This means that for the damage to remain the same, monster damage would have to be lowered by 26.07% (1645/2225=73.93%)
If they only reduce the damage monsters do in Inferno by 25%, we will end up taking ~1% more damage when using both Prismatic Armor and Archon.
Of course, this means that Archon on its own is SIGNIFICANTLY stronger. It also means that letting Prismatic Armor drop is not going to be nearly as dangerous. But when you have both armor buffs active, the nerf to EA and Prismatic Armor is going to be felt by Archon form just as much if not more than other builds.
When you say the Archon and EA/PA buffs stack directly, it is a little misleading. Your math is correct in that the values are additive, so in essence Archon is independent of EA and PA.
Also, your math is a little flawed. You use 2.05 for your resistance coefficient instead of 1.8, which makes a HUGE difference.
Quick math
50k hit, 6k base armor 800 base resists.
1.0.4
No Archon, you take 2649 damage
With Archon you take 1830 damage
1.0.5, before 25% nerf
No Archon, you take 3354 damage
With Archon you take 2223 damage
Comparison, 1.0.4 value / 1.0.5 value
No Archon you need mobs to do 79% of current value
With Archon you need them to do 82% of current value
Thus in Archon you will take relatively less damage than before. My 25% more EHP in Archon form was not right and it seems more like 3-4% more, roughly, for this example. Another way to look at it is the armor difference, as you mentioned, goes from 2.05 to 1.75 with Archon or 1.65 to 1.35 without. The nerf will reduce relative armor by 22% with just Force Armor, but only 17% with Archon. Similarly resists with PA will be reduced by 12% without Archon but only 9.1% in Archon form.
On a side note, I might be calculating the inferno nerf differently than they are implementing it. When I see a 25% nerf to damage, I was of the impression they are dividing current damage by 1.25. Based on the blue post, it sounds like they're instead multiplying it by (1-0.25). This means the damage nerf would be more severe than I was anticipating, and the previous nerf might also be more severe, so that the EHP threshholds might be lower than previously calculated. The difference ends up being only a couple thousand EHP (102k currently vs 100k if I multiply by (1-NERF) instead of dividing by (1+NERF), so the thressholds are still close, but I'm no longer sure of their precision.
EDIT: for quick reference, the DR formula for Armor (A) and Resists ( R ) are
DRa = A/(A+63*50)
DRr =R/(R+63*5)
for a lvl 63 mob.
Crusader DPS and EHP Spreadsheet, meant for Crusaders
My Wizard
I used the wording in the blue post specifically because it was confusing on the actual implementation of the math.
The damage reduction calculator I used was found: http://messor.fi/D3/
(hopefully) correct math:
1.0.4 - 50,000 damage hit
No buff: 6000 armor, 800 resistance, 90.27% reduction, 4865 damage taken
EA+Pris: 9900 armor, 1120 resistance, 94.7% reduction, 2650 damage taken
Archon: 8400 armor, 1120 resistance, 94.01% reduction, 2995 damage taken
EA+Pris+Archon: 12300 armor, 1440 resistance, 96.34% reduction, 1830 damage taken
1.0.5 - 50,000 damage hit
No buff: 6000 armor, 800 resistance, 90.27% reduction, 4865 damage taken
EA+Pris: 8100 armor, 1000 resistance, 93.29% reduction, 3355 damage taken
Archon: 8400 armor, 1120 resistance, 94.01% reduction, 2995 damage taken
EA+Pris+Archon: 10500 armor, 1320 resistance, 95.55% reduction, 2225 damage taken
1830/2225=.822 So if archon remains the same, the end result is about 3% less damage taken. Am I interpreting that correctly?
Wild speculation, but if it is a straight 25% nerf to monster damage, that 50,000 damage hit will turn into 40,000. With the new EA and Archon unchanged, (40,000 * .0445=) 1780 damage taken. In this case, the actual damage taken is 190 damage less. or, 1780/1830=.9727 or 2.73% difference in damage taken. After all the nerfs, you could consider Archon is getting a 2.7% buff to defense.
Anyway, you proved me wrong that Archon will get more powerful with the nerf to incoming damage. However, I still maintain that it isn't a significant difference and not something that will suddenly make an Archon build OP.
Yeah, it's not as significant as I had postulated. Still, it's like a relative buff of 3-4% EHP to Archon, so I'll take what I can get.
Regarding the mob damage nerf, I was originally thinking that would turn 50k to 40k hits but I think it might turn it into 37.5k based on the blue post and how they look at the 2650/3355 79% to mean elites need to do 79% of the current damage to make the skills remain as effective as they are now. If you replace the 40k with 50k*(0.79), and then apply the damage formula, you get that the mob does the same damage with the 1.0.5 values as the 50k hit with the current values, which is why I think they're applying the nerf as a form of damage reduction on the elites or on damage we take, or something like that. The differences between the two possible cases is a base damage of 2.5k which is around 6% difference between the two so it's small, but not completely insiginificant.
Crusader DPS and EHP Spreadsheet, meant for Crusaders
My Wizard
(50k hit, 6k base armor 800 base resists, EA+Prism+GC)
1.0.4
No Archon, you take 2941 damage
With Archon you take 1995 damage :
=> Archon counts as a 32.17% dmg reduction.
1.0.5, before 25% nerf
No Archon, you take 3772 damage
With Archon you take 2445 damage
=> Archon counts as a 35.18% damage reduction
So yeah, ~3%. Not a big deal. But it's not my main point.
Now, let's do some very approximative "maths". If you consider that Archon builds
1) are the most efficient once viable because of the very nature of the beam (instant pew pew, no resource management)
2) become viable at a threshold of (DPS/mob life)/damage taken, also called "burn them before they burn you",
1.0.4 with Archon: 1995 damage
1.0.5 with Archon (.75 factor): 1833.
So we get a 8.12% "Archon threshold decrease". Not a good point for build diversity.
It will not be a "death".
As things are being posted, If you want to play the default difficulty, then you can still do things with ease with cm... the problem is how hard will the mobs hit if you apply a certain number to the /player difficulty.
And about the Purgatorium, it seems to be the same bosses, same mechanics, way more damage.
I hope to see a challenge again in the game, but I don't want to feel cheated with the current nerfs...
no it wont be the same thing, people are saying storm chaser will get a lower proc coeff. since the actual 50% is pretty nuts... try and play with wicked wind and tell me what you think...
Well, I do expect that nerf, but it might stay as it is, just because of the tornado movement that is unpredictable and a little bit unreliable when we are facing fewer mobs... I think blizzard would release a note on it... there are massive talks about SC nerf for quite sometime, and nothing came up...
If they come and adjust its coefficient, it might be under consideration running cm with like, 25 APOC minimum... I suck at the maths, but if we keep something near the cap of regen from crits, it wont hurt that much.