I think you guys don't see all the good in this...
1.) No bots
2.) No third party sites
3.) Sub prime drops will now appear good as players are now on an even playing field. No more players such as Athene that get fed and make everyone else think their gear sucks. No more trade scams/tycoons.
4.) PvP can finally find a center of balance. Just like esports, everyone has an even playing field. No ability to use real money.. no ability to use suicidal connections to stack up.
Trading is fun for some people.
Sometimes, the thrill of a great drop is the items value on trade. If I find a GREAT barb legendary, I'm not gonna play barb.....so it's useless to me. Instead of being able to trade it for a great WD or Monk item, I'm stuck with my best drop ever collecting dust....can't even give it to my buddy for free.
There's a middle ground here.
Trading end game items is the path of least resistance. Especially when you eBay all your gear on your next rage quit ruksak ;). Now someone else just went from zero to sixty in 1 second flat.
Again we just eliminated spam, botting, account compromises, third party sites, and overall pay to win.
Am I the only one that thinks this is more about 3rd party trades than the players "fun"?
I'm in full agreement with this. I can't see how anyone could think that no trading of set/legendary items could possibly be "fun" for the general playerbase. It baffles me. I understand the AH/RMAH removal bit. I can wrap my head around that. I can't wrap my head around this one. The volume of negatives that this introduces to solve a "problem" that really isn't a problem for most people...
Well, this is a decision that I can not, nor will not attempt to back Blizzard on - and that should speak volumes coming from me. I have a short list of things that would cause me not to buy RoS, and this is #1 on that list by a long shot.
Trading end game items is the path of least resistance. Especially when you eBay all your gear on your next rage quit ruksak ;). Now someone else just went from zero to sixty in 1 second flat.
Again we just eliminated spam, botting, account compromises, third party sites, and overall pay to win.
So, in order to eliminate 3rd party sites.... we have to decimate something that many people enjoy (even if it's just friend-to-friend or other small-scale trading)?
Only a sith operates in absolutes and, unfortunately, the problem is that a faction of the anti-AH movement turned into the "NO FUCKING TRADING EVER BECAUSE I SAY SO" movement.
Trading end game items is the path of least resistance.
Trading is fun for many people, though. What part of that don't you understand? This isn't a competition.
Especially when you eBay all your gear on your next rage quit ruksak
Can you fucking blame me for getting upset? Seriously? I feel that players were seriously mislead into thinking a major itemization patch was incoming.....8 motherfucking months ago. Instead, they packaged it for pre-xpac hype. Plain and simple.
BTW: I have NEVER bought or sold a single thing for cash, ever.
Again we just eliminated spam, botting, account compromises, third party sites, and overall pay to win.
And I love that aspect.
This could create a healthy environment, I can see how it would.
Some issues I'm going to point toward;
Are rares going to become so bad that they have no end game value? If not, won't there still be a market? What about gold?
Blizz better think this through. They fucked up this Diablo enough as it is.
RMT is going to be account sales/theft. Similar to the old leveling services people have paid for in WoW and other games. In WoW, it was easier to farm gold by stealing accounts and stripping them than trying to bot the commodities market (although they did both). Between this and the WoW Garrison, where you can NPC your way to all the various commodities and alternate trade-skills, makes it seem like Blizzard wants to get out of the virtual economy business. I guess their PhD Economists on staff were eating peoples' lunches out of the refrigerator.
I'm in full agreement with this. I can't see how anyone could think that no trading of set/legendary items could possibly be "fun" for the general playerbase. It baffles me. I understand the AH/RMAH removal bit. I can wrap my head around that. I can't wrap my head around this one. The volume of negatives that this introduces to solve a "problem" that really isn't a problem for most people...
Well, this is a decision that I can not, nor will not attempt to back Blizzard on - and that should speak volumes coming from me. I have a short list of things that would cause me not to buy RoS, and this is #1 on that list by a long shot.
Agreed 10000000000%
Trading is a CRITICAL component in online ARPG's. It brings the community together for a common goal. Blizzard had better think long and hard about this move.
Blizzard has been on a rampage of PR, parroting this sentiment that offline mode (which I do not want) is off the table because they want players to interact.
...and then this?
If I were one to subscribe to conspiracies, I'd say that Blizzard took a stance "If we can't cash in on our items, neither can you".
It's fuckin' fun to trade. I never once engaged in a cash transaction, ever. I ignore it. What I did do, was enjoy meeting new people for trades. Some of my best D2 friends came by way of trade games. Total strangers....we meet for a trade and that person becomes a trusted friend for years, and that's a god damn fact. Blizzard is talking about destroying this. . ....
If I go four years and never find a Mempo I sure as hell want the OPTION to be able to acquire one. In a game based on RNG you *must* have a check against bad luck. Trading has always been that check in the Diablo franchise. I never found a Windforce in all my time playing D2. To say to me "then you cannot have a Windforce, no matter how much time you invested" is just stupid, arrogant, and completely misses the point of what trading is supposed to accomplish.
I find myself very neutral in this particular topic, but I wanted to comment on this point. Having the option, or possibility, to acquire specific legendaries is only fair. But while the items themselves may be BoA, one potential workaround for this is making crafting patterns for those legendaries that are NOT BoA. That way, if you can't find that Mempo or Frostburn or whatever, you can hunt down the pattern for it and start making your own. With the focus clearly shifting to self-found, that seems like a viable option to me.
If I were one to subscribe to conspiracies, I'd say that Blizzard took a stance "If we can't cash in on our items, neither can you".
You kid, but I think it could be a case of "we're not gonna make any money with trading, so why should we spend money trying to solve account hacking and shit?".
I still see people botting via multi-accounts for their own gain, and they will. I think this says BAD things about what to expect for rare drops, unless they lock them as well. What about gold? Will they just delete the trade screen and have no way to drop/trade gold?
Look, I'm still gonna buy RoS. Not a deal breaker, as I can enjoy a solo experience just fine. I just feel this is an extreme overreaction.
Maybe the idea will grow on me. But it seems a bit odd for an online ARPG to have no trade interaction. I'll wait to hear more on this, as it's sure to cause a severe blow up and provoke a response from Blizz.
1) It's just for DRM reasons and I think everybody knows it. It's still a very good point you made here because they don't have a shroud left to put on their DRM restrictions now. Maybe the singleplayer fans will get what they want in the future.
If you look at the console, random public PUGs are an utter disaster due to hacked items. Not everyone has friends who play Diablo, or play at the same time, so you still should have a very good random PUG mode. But the purely hacked item game makes that pretty impossible. You're dead right about single player, b/c that's the only way any offline game works anymore.
2) What is the incentive to be in a clan now? Before this i saw the potential for some new better way of having a social trading experience between friends. If you can't even trade with other clanmembers unless they were in the game already, then how is a clan different from the friendlist we already have? Just for bragging rights and a visible avatar?
Even though I didn't articulate it, my first thought on the subject was:
Why clans?
Why friendslist?
Why co-op games?
If you can't trade... or if trading is only limited to players in the game (similar to how WoW BoPs in instances are limited for 2hrs to people who were saved to that instance/boss) what exactly is the point of any of the "social features?" Removing trading really cuts into the major reason people have to socialize in ARPGs. As Ruksak said, most of the people I met in D2 were from trading or public games. Removing trading might seem innocuous but that cuts out a LOT of the player-to-player interaction that most of us had.
I simply can't fathom saying to maka, hypothetically, "Yeah man, this great <item> dropped and I know you have a pet-specced WD...... but you weren't in my game so I can't hook a brother up." To me that is completely.... utterly.... outrageous. Why even have a friends list when the extent of the interactions is killing monsters and trading with those people three at a time? I have dozens of people on my friends list, and maybe one day I'll have more. But why am I being forced to share the game with them three at a time? Why would anyone want trade to be limited to people you're grouped with and nothing else?
The 4-player cap already annoys the fuck out of me because it's not uncommon that between friends and friends-of-friends we have more than four people who want to group up.... to extend that inconvenience to items is just unconscionable. If that's the cost of "killing" D2JSP then it's a cost I'm absolutely not willing to pay.
This will 100% get changed by release, no way they'll let this slide by if the community gets vocal. I usually support Blizz on most if not all things (fanboism has a strong hold on this one) but this is just simply unacceptable. Without a real test of the servers though we can't be sure how often these legendaries come out and how much of a bump we'll see in finding these items, which is another problem they have to address quickly, especially if this game is to be released next year. That's beside the point though, and to be honest I am pissed off at this decision. In current D3 I would find an unimpressive legendary and had no use for it, so what would I do? I'd go on the AH undersell an Item because I don't really give two shits and I enjoy giving people other items for a little less than normal so they can enjoy the game too, then I'd take my earned gold and buy the item I needed. This basic trade of items that used a middle-man(the AH) was good in theory but basically took out the need for finding items yourself. This though Is just too extreme, now if I find a Legendary Daibo, and I do have a monk but I don't really play it, I cant take the item and trade it for a Wand or a Mighty-Weapon or a Hand Xbow for my DH? What kind of logic went into this decision? Who on their right mind would take away the only way for people to interact.... Especially because that's why people wanted the AH to go away. IT lessened P2P interaction and made it way too easy to get what you needed, now they're saying no P2P interaction at all just find shit yourself... Really stupid decision IMHO
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Removing trading does not remove the social aspect. You still kill monsters with your friends, and as stated by Travis you have a time window in which you can give the legendaries to your friends in that game; which I think is great. More players in the game, more loot dropping overall. You still talk to your friends and clanmates about what items you found. You still check your friends character and rejoice over what each of you has found and commiserate over what you haven't yet found and are still searching for.
Think about this too, say you are playing with a friend and a legendary drops that you can't use, you will be more inclined to give it to your friend than keep it to trade for the item that you really want for self gratification. It almost encourages that instead.
All trading does is encourage you to hunt for "value" instead of hunting for specific things.
All trading does is encourage you to hunt for "value" instead of hunting for specific things.
How you gonna feel about that statement if there's a few specific items you REALLY want, but can never have? Even after years of trying?
It's a valid concern. I know I would NEVER have gotten my Eshaft for my Zealot in D2 unless I traded the perf HoZ Meph gave me.
This proposal means....that dynamic is GONE.
Admittedly, I'm a little torn here. Because I despise the 3rd party trade, D3jsp and all their ilk as well as the scammers and bottom-feeders that emerge with any sort of trade based economy.
To make matters worse, there can only be 4 people in game at once, even further limiting your ability to quick-trade with others. There has to be a better solution than this.
I also want to also state that this is a system that would affect me adversely too, but I still support it. I too want to look at my friends characters and be jealous too of something they found, that I yet haven't, and know that I can't just instantly gratify myself with my very own version within an hour's time. I wouldn't be as impressed that he owned it in the first place if I knew that I could just go trade for it and get my own relatively hassle-free. I crave that experience that makes me see an item I want on a friend and encourages me to go hunt for my very own on monsters, instead of a trade channel. Then to know that when I finally find it, it will be that much savory of a victory.
All this shows to me is:
#1 - you're jealous of your friends' gear (wtf, jealous? really? talk about misplaced emotions...), which is weird;
#2 - you have no self control.
I've played self found since release, but I understood the people that said that they felt "forced" to use the AH even though they didn't like it; the self found experience was so frustrating that I totally understood if some people just couldn't be asked to 'suffer' through that.
But, if they do things right, and with the demise of the AH, playing self found will be a blast, and nowhere near that level of frustration, so I can no longer sympathise with that way of thinking. Now all it takes is a tiny amount of self control.
It's not fun for me unless everyone else is doing it the same way.
You have to be joking, get over yourself. Do your thing let everyone elce do what they want.
You are misinterpreting me. I am saying that a level playing field is important. I'm not saying everyone has to play my way. I am saying that it's not a sandbox game. There has to be boundaries in place to preserve the rewarding experience of finding a legendary. If you increase legendary drop rates so that players are finding their own legendaries and also try to make it so that every legendary has amazing stats by limiting the randomness to their affix rolls, you cannot have them be tradeable. They will just end up being everywhere and they will all be so amazing they'll just trade for nothing. Then where is the fun in trading when nothing has real value? You can't have (1) legendaries drop at a frequent rate, (2) have no bad rolls on legendaries (3) have them be tradeable, and (4) have the experience of finding a legendary feel rewarding. It's asking too much. Something has got to give.
With all the problems trading causes: duping, scamming, pay to win, botting... I think the answer is obvious. It is a sacrifice, but I think once people give it a try and put their fears aside they will find it will be for the better.
As someone thats fully taken advantage of the AH (flipping), I'm on board with this. The people with good gear will be the ones that played the most, not the ones that frequent d2j.
All trading does is encourage you to hunt for "value" instead of hunting for specific things.
How you gonna feel about that statement if there's a few specific items you REALLY want, but can never have? Even after years of trying?
It's a valid concern. I know I would NEVER have gotten my Eshaft for my Zealot in D2 unless I traded the perf HoZ Meph gave me.
This proposal means....that dynamic is GONE.
Admittedly, I'm a little torn here. Because I despise the 3rd party trade, D3jsp and all their ilk as well as the scammers and bottom-feeders that emerge with any sort of trade based economy.
To make matters worse, there can only be 4 people in game at once, even further limiting your ability to quick-trade with others. There has to be a better solution than this.
The hope is that there will be such a bevy of useful and fun legendaries and the self drop-rate will be high enough that there will always be something useful for me to utilize if I just slay monsters at a healthy rate. Hunting for a specific legendary will definitely keep me motivated to keep playing in the long haul as well. I would gladly sacrifice never finding a Windforce if it meant that all the legendaries I did find were mine alone and the game was built in a way to reflect that. It would make me proud to wear my items, because they would truly be MY items, and there would be no disputing that!
Right now, all my characters have all the legendaries they could possibly desire, and I would gladly make half of those legendaries disappear if it gave me a reason to keep hunting for them! Unfortunately the game in its current state is too dull for that, considering the crappy random affix ranges on legendaries. Found too many crappy ones to care for hunting them.
As someone thats fully taken advantage of the AH (flipping), I'm on board with this.
I'm going to let this [soulbound] soak in and see how I feel at a later date.
The most important aspects of D3 is that it is a rewarding, challenging, fun game to play and that it retains it's integrity (an aspect that was lost to D2).
Currently, I don't even play softcore anymore, I only play HC and I do it self-found. I do use the AH to buy mats....because the whole game is skewed toward the AH and crafting.... but I could certainly do fine without even doing that.
One thing that may make trading still an option;
I noticed the Clan screen shot had a cue for messages. If one were in a strong clan, and we had 2 hours (a little more would be suffice) ......well...there could still be a healthy player run trade system within the Clan.
As someone thats fully taken advantage of the AH (flipping), I'm on board with this.
I'm going to let this [soulbound] soak in and see how I feel at a later date.
The most important aspects of D3 is that it is a rewarding, challenging, fun game to play and that it retains it's integrity (an aspect that was lost to D2).
Currently, I don't even play softcore anymore, I only play HC and I do it self-found. I do use the AH to buy mats....because the whole game is skewed toward the AH and crafting.... but I could certainly do fine without even doing that.
One thing that may make trading still an option;
I noticed the Clan screen shot had a cue for messages. If one were in a strong clan, and we had 2 hours (a little more would be suffice) ......well...there could still be a healthy player run trade system within the Clan.
What say you to that?
They could definitely make it so that any item that dropped had a time stamp and anyone in your clan before the time stamp on the item could be traded within a 24 hour period. Something like that would be a good compromise I think.
Trading end game items is the path of least resistance. Especially when you eBay all your gear on your next rage quit ruksak ;). Now someone else just went from zero to sixty in 1 second flat.
Again we just eliminated spam, botting, account compromises, third party sites, and overall pay to win.
So you might not be stuck with those drops collecting dust.
Of course, the chance they manage to deliver on this is fairly slim
I'm in full agreement with this. I can't see how anyone could think that no trading of set/legendary items could possibly be "fun" for the general playerbase. It baffles me. I understand the AH/RMAH removal bit. I can wrap my head around that. I can't wrap my head around this one. The volume of negatives that this introduces to solve a "problem" that really isn't a problem for most people...
Well, this is a decision that I can not, nor will not attempt to back Blizzard on - and that should speak volumes coming from me. I have a short list of things that would cause me not to buy RoS, and this is #1 on that list by a long shot.
So, in order to eliminate 3rd party sites.... we have to decimate something that many people enjoy (even if it's just friend-to-friend or other small-scale trading)?
Only a sith operates in absolutes and, unfortunately, the problem is that a faction of the anti-AH movement turned into the "NO FUCKING TRADING EVER BECAUSE I SAY SO" movement.
In Soviet Russia items trade you?
Trading is fun for many people, though. What part of that don't you understand? This isn't a competition.
Can you fucking blame me for getting upset? Seriously? I feel that players were seriously mislead into thinking a major itemization patch was incoming.....8 motherfucking months ago. Instead, they packaged it for pre-xpac hype. Plain and simple.
BTW: I have NEVER bought or sold a single thing for cash, ever.
And I love that aspect.
This could create a healthy environment, I can see how it would.
Some issues I'm going to point toward;
Are rares going to become so bad that they have no end game value? If not, won't there still be a market? What about gold?
Blizz better think this through. They fucked up this Diablo enough as it is.
BurningRope#1322 (US~HC) Request an invite to the official (NA) <dfans> Clan
Agreed 10000000000%
Trading is a CRITICAL component in online ARPG's. It brings the community together for a common goal. Blizzard had better think long and hard about this move.
Blizzard has been on a rampage of PR, parroting this sentiment that offline mode (which I do not want) is off the table because they want players to interact.
...and then this?
If I were one to subscribe to conspiracies, I'd say that Blizzard took a stance "If we can't cash in on our items, neither can you".
It's fuckin' fun to trade. I never once engaged in a cash transaction, ever. I ignore it. What I did do, was enjoy meeting new people for trades. Some of my best D2 friends came by way of trade games. Total strangers....we meet for a trade and that person becomes a trusted friend for years, and that's a god damn fact. Blizzard is talking about destroying this. . ....
BurningRope#1322 (US~HC) Request an invite to the official (NA) <dfans> Clan
I find myself very neutral in this particular topic, but I wanted to comment on this point. Having the option, or possibility, to acquire specific legendaries is only fair. But while the items themselves may be BoA, one potential workaround for this is making crafting patterns for those legendaries that are NOT BoA. That way, if you can't find that Mempo or Frostburn or whatever, you can hunt down the pattern for it and start making your own. With the focus clearly shifting to self-found, that seems like a viable option to me.
Just a thought.
I still see people botting via multi-accounts for their own gain, and they will. I think this says BAD things about what to expect for rare drops, unless they lock them as well. What about gold? Will they just delete the trade screen and have no way to drop/trade gold?
Look, I'm still gonna buy RoS. Not a deal breaker, as I can enjoy a solo experience just fine. I just feel this is an extreme overreaction.
Maybe the idea will grow on me. But it seems a bit odd for an online ARPG to have no trade interaction. I'll wait to hear more on this, as it's sure to cause a severe blow up and provoke a response from Blizz.
BurningRope#1322 (US~HC) Request an invite to the official (NA) <dfans> Clan
If you look at the console, random public PUGs are an utter disaster due to hacked items. Not everyone has friends who play Diablo, or play at the same time, so you still should have a very good random PUG mode. But the purely hacked item game makes that pretty impossible. You're dead right about single player, b/c that's the only way any offline game works anymore.
Even though I didn't articulate it, my first thought on the subject was:
Why clans?
Why friendslist?
Why co-op games?
If you can't trade... or if trading is only limited to players in the game (similar to how WoW BoPs in instances are limited for 2hrs to people who were saved to that instance/boss) what exactly is the point of any of the "social features?" Removing trading really cuts into the major reason people have to socialize in ARPGs. As Ruksak said, most of the people I met in D2 were from trading or public games. Removing trading might seem innocuous but that cuts out a LOT of the player-to-player interaction that most of us had.
I simply can't fathom saying to maka, hypothetically, "Yeah man, this great <item> dropped and I know you have a pet-specced WD...... but you weren't in my game so I can't hook a brother up." To me that is completely.... utterly.... outrageous. Why even have a friends list when the extent of the interactions is killing monsters and trading with those people three at a time? I have dozens of people on my friends list, and maybe one day I'll have more. But why am I being forced to share the game with them three at a time? Why would anyone want trade to be limited to people you're grouped with and nothing else?
The 4-player cap already annoys the fuck out of me because it's not uncommon that between friends and friends-of-friends we have more than four people who want to group up.... to extend that inconvenience to items is just unconscionable. If that's the cost of "killing" D2JSP then it's a cost I'm absolutely not willing to pay.
Blizzard gave them an entire game. L O L
Think about this too, say you are playing with a friend and a legendary drops that you can't use, you will be more inclined to give it to your friend than keep it to trade for the item that you really want for self gratification. It almost encourages that instead.
All trading does is encourage you to hunt for "value" instead of hunting for specific things.
Top 10 Solo Wizard Leaderboard - North America
Highest: Rank 6 // Greater Rift 42 12m40s
How you gonna feel about that statement if there's a few specific items you REALLY want, but can never have? Even after years of trying?
It's a valid concern. I know I would NEVER have gotten my Eshaft for my Zealot in D2 unless I traded the perf HoZ Meph gave me.
This proposal means....that dynamic is GONE.
Admittedly, I'm a little torn here. Because I despise the 3rd party trade, D3jsp and all their ilk as well as the scammers and bottom-feeders that emerge with any sort of trade based economy.
To make matters worse, there can only be 4 people in game at once, even further limiting your ability to quick-trade with others. There has to be a better solution than this.
BurningRope#1322 (US~HC) Request an invite to the official (NA) <dfans> Clan
You are misinterpreting me. I am saying that a level playing field is important. I'm not saying everyone has to play my way. I am saying that it's not a sandbox game. There has to be boundaries in place to preserve the rewarding experience of finding a legendary. If you increase legendary drop rates so that players are finding their own legendaries and also try to make it so that every legendary has amazing stats by limiting the randomness to their affix rolls, you cannot have them be tradeable. They will just end up being everywhere and they will all be so amazing they'll just trade for nothing. Then where is the fun in trading when nothing has real value? You can't have (1) legendaries drop at a frequent rate, (2) have no bad rolls on legendaries (3) have them be tradeable, and (4) have the experience of finding a legendary feel rewarding. It's asking too much. Something has got to give.
With all the problems trading causes: duping, scamming, pay to win, botting... I think the answer is obvious. It is a sacrifice, but I think once people give it a try and put their fears aside they will find it will be for the better.
Top 10 Solo Wizard Leaderboard - North America
Highest: Rank 6 // Greater Rift 42 12m40s
The hope is that there will be such a bevy of useful and fun legendaries and the self drop-rate will be high enough that there will always be something useful for me to utilize if I just slay monsters at a healthy rate. Hunting for a specific legendary will definitely keep me motivated to keep playing in the long haul as well. I would gladly sacrifice never finding a Windforce if it meant that all the legendaries I did find were mine alone and the game was built in a way to reflect that. It would make me proud to wear my items, because they would truly be MY items, and there would be no disputing that!
Right now, all my characters have all the legendaries they could possibly desire, and I would gladly make half of those legendaries disappear if it gave me a reason to keep hunting for them! Unfortunately the game in its current state is too dull for that, considering the crappy random affix ranges on legendaries. Found too many crappy ones to care for hunting them.
Top 10 Solo Wizard Leaderboard - North America
Highest: Rank 6 // Greater Rift 42 12m40s
I'm going to let this [soulbound] soak in and see how I feel at a later date.
The most important aspects of D3 is that it is a rewarding, challenging, fun game to play and that it retains it's integrity (an aspect that was lost to D2).
Currently, I don't even play softcore anymore, I only play HC and I do it self-found. I do use the AH to buy mats....because the whole game is skewed toward the AH and crafting.... but I could certainly do fine without even doing that.
One thing that may make trading still an option;
I noticed the Clan screen shot had a cue for messages. If one were in a strong clan, and we had 2 hours (a little more would be suffice) ......well...there could still be a healthy player run trade system within the Clan.
What say you to that?
BurningRope#1322 (US~HC) Request an invite to the official (NA) <dfans> Clan
They could definitely make it so that any item that dropped had a time stamp and anyone in your clan before the time stamp on the item could be traded within a 24 hour period. Something like that would be a good compromise I think.
Top 10 Solo Wizard Leaderboard - North America
Highest: Rank 6 // Greater Rift 42 12m40s