So I was just reading am older topic on Salvaging and its problems/merits on the official forums. There was a concern by some members that It would lead to de-valuing or overvaluing of items or processes when it came to min/maxing (well if you can craft the best items crafting will be dominant and if you have to pick up the best items it becomes useless) and also that in some circumstances you might be forced to pick up every item you see. Now I'm not compleatly sure I grasped the point of all the arguments, But I remember how very shortly into D2 there was never a reason to pick up any non magical item or even an item that wasn't Unique/Rare or what ave you. Then Bashiok posted the following
Jay's response was "If its not worth picking up for gold, it is definitely not worth picking up for crafting."
Essentially any player worth their salt is going to favor gold over crafting materials, simply because it's required for so many other things that are important to a high level character. And essentially a lot of this comes down to tuning and making sure the relationship between all of the systems isn't broken, and all we can say to that is we appreciate your passion for the game.
So I was wondering what folks thought about the following idea on the topic: once you get into Nightmare difficulty, non-magical items cease to drop. This does not mean that magic items drop more, just that the 'worthless' items don't show up
Also any further insight on the economy of the game etc. is, of course, welcome! Here is a link to the referenced thread.
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If that made sense to you, Bravo! I think I even confused myself...
I like the idea of the systems interacting. I mean you can sell an item for some gold, or salvage for the raw materials. Now with those you can make an exceptional item you can use, or (here the interaction) sell for even more gold than you'd get by vendoring the useless items.
Also as Hans said, it's really nice to finally make use out of the useless items we come across.
As for the "removal" of the non magical items, i'm totally against. They could be used for gold in Diablo 2. In Diablo 3 they're going to be even more useful.
One thing i don't like in D2 and it could be improved is the drop rate of whites. It's really annoying to see the wholes screen filled with names every time you open a chest. I'm really annoyed but that level of visual polution.
And i believe get items for selling to NPCs will not be a good deal. Basically because in this game we don't have Town Portals. So if you get your beg full you have to w8 until the next way point. So i think the beg will exist for us to carry useful loot, the items we want to trade with other players or keep for ourselves.
And the Scavenge mechanic is the only thing i don't like about D3 (mechanically). I just think that scrap items for random craft loot will loose it charm in no time and after a while it will be just annoying to keep clicking on dozen of inventory items everytime you end a run.
Imo you should craft materials combining stuff like weapons, gems, consumable and maybe some craft only materials that you drop. I just can't see how scrape can be fun =/
you can salvage multiple items, which is a very nice thing.
Also, most of the stuff that polluted our screen after clicking a good chest was gold. Gold is picked up automatically, so there will definitely be less to pick up. Arrows/Bolts are off the game aswell (except for rare quivers for the Demon Hunter that don't have quantity).
I think it's going to be better than before. And you can still aim towards certain items when you level the artisans.
you can salvage multiple items, which is a very nice thing.
Also, most of the stuff that polluted our screen after clicking a good chest was gold. Gold is picked up automatically, so there will definitely be less to pick up. Arrows/Bolts are off the game aswell (except for rare quivers for the Demon Hunter that don't have quantity).
I think it's going to be better than before. And you can still aim towards certain items when you level the artisans.
Gold, Potions and Scrolls hehehe
Still, i think the drop rates of white items should be toned down.
I just can't see myself breaking d9ozen of armors, storing some shining dust crap and having fun doing that =/ I still hope they creat a alternative and better mechanic for craft materials.
there should be the "scroll of wealth" aswell to turn stuff to gold too.
Also, they said that waypoints won't be scattered so far apart as they used to, so i wouldn't bother about that. There's gonna be access to the stash without too much effort.
You also shouldn't forget that we won't be filling our inventory with charms to be effective. The charms we use will go to the Talisman so whatever we need we use and whatever we don't need we destroy or stash
I had not accounted for the lack of arrows/bolts and the reduction of potions. That will certainly help to remove the sea of white that occasionally got sprung on a zealous adventurer. I do, however, like the Salvage mechanic and get the feeling that hording up more than 30 of any material for no reason will not be beneficial, to support the 'no need to vacuum' theory.
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If that made sense to you, Bravo! I think I even confused myself...
Well i'm pretty sure they said you have to craft the highest level gear, or that the best items would come from recipes dropped from monsters, so it's a combo of everything. You need to hunt for the recipe, and pick up anything so you can sell it for gold to learn the recipe and have some more gold to make it, plus you need to salvage some things for the materials as well. So you do actually need the most useless gear for currency/salvaging so you can get that extra bit of raw material or gold.
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Well i'm pretty sure they said you have to craft the highest level gear, or that the best items would come from recipes dropped from monsters, so it's a combo of everything. You need to hunt for the recipe, and pick up anything so you can sell it for gold to learn the recipe and have some more gold to make it, plus you need to salvage some things for the materials as well. So you do actually need the most useless gear for currency/salvaging so you can get that extra bit of raw material or gold.
No they said that some top level gear could be crafted, but that they were aiming for a mix of legendaries, uniques, crafted and other items in a maxed out character.
And low level/useless gear will salvage into low level/useless material, and will sell for very little gold. That way, whether or not the gear/salvage is useless is dependent on how close to your level the gear is.
Like what was said before; gold, arrows, health/mana potions, damage potions, town/identify scrolls, debuff potions etc were the items that made the screen seem too crowded.. With a lot of that gone, it will be a lot easier to spot the items that deserve the attention.
In my opinion, nonmagical item drops should stay simply because magical and rare items would seem much more mundane if they were all that dropped.
As for which should be more powerful, crafted or dropped items, I think there could be somewhat of a compromise by allowing even the most powerful dropped items to be slightly augmented through crafting.
Well it would be kind of annoying to have two different pieces of gear that have the same type of stats but a different name. That would also kind of make it so that it comes down to which piece got the better randomized stats, which means even more grinding for the best randomized stats.
This might sound silly but why not have the stats on top top end gear the same whether they be crafted or found (or at least have the same varibles; as loot stats is randomized usually).
IMO this is a dangerous road to go down in terms of itemization. Basically you're talking about gear welfare, that time played necessarily means gear equity. While it seems like that might prevent "grinding frustration," what will actually happen is that end game itemization will become vanilla, much like WoW. After a certain amount of player effort, you will be guaranteed itemization. Because of min-maxing, people will be wearing more or less the same stuff, AND know exactly how to get it.
The reason this is negative is that it wipes out the excitement of finding hot upgrades, and replaces it with a sense of entitlement. In WoW, players know that when they do x, y, z, they get a particular reward. You know exactly how to obtain your gear, so it was mainly impatience that drove you to follow a pre-determined path to your itemization. In Diablo, it's ESSENTIAL that you have no idea where/when you're going to get that upgrade.. That way you're super-excited every time you kill a mob, inspect the loot from chests, or study the crafting recipes that just dropped.
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"Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions."
-Thomas Jefferson
One thing that I haven't seen discussed in this thread yet is mid-high level gear being salvaged for materials. Low level gear has almost no use other than to salvage for gold, and or materials which is 100% fine, and expected. I suspect high level gear will also be viable for these purposes, seeing as now that Blizzard understands economy, they know there needs to be a way to erase high level items from the economy so their value stays high for as long as possible.
The team admitted over years nothing holds it's value perfectly. The fact that they even mentioned this says they've thought about it a lot, and I'm sure have found ways to remove high level items from the economy in useful ways to the player.
“We act as though comfort and luxury were the chief requirements of life, when all that we need to make us happy is something to be enthusiastic about.” - Albert Einstein
D3 will likely have 2 expansions and quite a few patches.
Items can be easily changed by Blizzard from time to time. A new grade of new tiered items, new crafts, new uniques, new sets.
The problem in D2 was that runewords and crafts were badly implemented at Expansion launch and runewords only good look at in the patches and over did some of the runewords. They would not be too bad if many of the runes were not duped.
I found that D2 classic had the best items since Rares had the best chance to be the best. A few of the uniques were good and could be used to great effect. Sets were quite weak at the time. Classic also had a better gambling options. You had a good chance at sets and uniques. I found gold find very good during classic days.
It seems to me that Blizzard is looking at Crafting more than they did in D2. We have the artisans that can create items and other things. It is a good way to spend gold and other resources for a chance to get better gear. It also works nicely for the casual player since he/she can upgrade gear that did not dropped to limit the grind of doing mf runs for gear.
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Don't forget runeword creates most rewarding models of creafted items. But they also destroyed individual runeword uses value as well...and amongst many other things =(
They replaced the runeword crafting system with the artisans. That doesn't mean that artisan-created items will be as powerful as runewords, but if you spend the time leveling up your artisans, or if you trade with people who have fully upgraded artisans, crafted items will have a place in your high end gear.
Why would you say runeword crafting system replace by artisans, from all we know so far dev team is avoiding something similar to what runeword end up standing for.
That's another reason why so far we are only having gems, and that's good for a reason.
More space to think about what stuffings other than gem can make builds more colourful, no dominant ingrediants.
Are we talking about the same kind of runeword? Or you're referring to now runes in D3?
No I'm referring to the runewords in D2. As in Enigma and the like. Runewords (along with various combinations you can make using the Horadric Cube) was essentially D2's crafting system (although it didn't really feel like one imo) and in D3 that role has been taken over by Artisans. Obviously they have some pretty large differences.
from all we know so far dev team is avoiding something similar to what runeword end up standing for.
I don't really know what you're saying here, but if I understand it correctly you seem to think that there will be uber-powerful, skill-awarding items in D3 like runewords in D2. That won't be the case.
In D3 gear (crafted and dropped), skill runes, gems, and the talisman will make up the items that contribute to your build of skills and traits. I doubt they'll bring back runes as they appeared in D2, but jewels and skulls are a possibilty. However, gems are going to be the only thing you can put in sockets last we heard.
So I was wondering what folks thought about the following idea on the topic: once you get into Nightmare difficulty, non-magical items cease to drop. This does not mean that magic items drop more, just that the 'worthless' items don't show up
Also any further insight on the economy of the game etc. is, of course, welcome!
Here is a link to the referenced thread.
I do like the idea of making useless stuff into something useful. Like cubing them for crafting materials or selling for gold.
Also as Hans said, it's really nice to finally make use out of the useless items we come across.
As for the "removal" of the non magical items, i'm totally against. They could be used for gold in Diablo 2. In Diablo 3 they're going to be even more useful.
And i believe get items for selling to NPCs will not be a good deal. Basically because in this game we don't have Town Portals. So if you get your beg full you have to w8 until the next way point. So i think the beg will exist for us to carry useful loot, the items we want to trade with other players or keep for ourselves.
And the Scavenge mechanic is the only thing i don't like about D3 (mechanically). I just think that scrap items for random craft loot will loose it charm in no time and after a while it will be just annoying to keep clicking on dozen of inventory items everytime you end a run.
Imo you should craft materials combining stuff like weapons, gems, consumable and maybe some craft only materials that you drop. I just can't see how scrape can be fun =/
Also, most of the stuff that polluted our screen after clicking a good chest was gold. Gold is picked up automatically, so there will definitely be less to pick up. Arrows/Bolts are off the game aswell (except for rare quivers for the Demon Hunter that don't have quantity).
I think it's going to be better than before. And you can still aim towards certain items when you level the artisans.
Gold, Potions and Scrolls hehehe
Still, i think the drop rates of white items should be toned down.
I just can't see myself breaking d9ozen of armors, storing some shining dust crap and having fun doing that =/ I still hope they creat a alternative and better mechanic for craft materials.
Also, they said that waypoints won't be scattered so far apart as they used to, so i wouldn't bother about that. There's gonna be access to the stash without too much effort.
You also shouldn't forget that we won't be filling our inventory with charms to be effective. The charms we use will go to the Talisman so whatever we need we use and whatever we don't need we destroy or stash
And low level/useless gear will salvage into low level/useless material, and will sell for very little gold. That way, whether or not the gear/salvage is useless is dependent on how close to your level the gear is.
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As for which should be more powerful, crafted or dropped items, I think there could be somewhat of a compromise by allowing even the most powerful dropped items to be slightly augmented through crafting.
-Gerahben
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IMO this is a dangerous road to go down in terms of itemization. Basically you're talking about gear welfare, that time played necessarily means gear equity. While it seems like that might prevent "grinding frustration," what will actually happen is that end game itemization will become vanilla, much like WoW. After a certain amount of player effort, you will be guaranteed itemization. Because of min-maxing, people will be wearing more or less the same stuff, AND know exactly how to get it.
The reason this is negative is that it wipes out the excitement of finding hot upgrades, and replaces it with a sense of entitlement. In WoW, players know that when they do x, y, z, they get a particular reward. You know exactly how to obtain your gear, so it was mainly impatience that drove you to follow a pre-determined path to your itemization. In Diablo, it's ESSENTIAL that you have no idea where/when you're going to get that upgrade.. That way you're super-excited every time you kill a mob, inspect the loot from chests, or study the crafting recipes that just dropped.
-Thomas Jefferson
The team admitted over years nothing holds it's value perfectly. The fact that they even mentioned this says they've thought about it a lot, and I'm sure have found ways to remove high level items from the economy in useful ways to the player.
Items can be easily changed by Blizzard from time to time. A new grade of new tiered items, new crafts, new uniques, new sets.
The problem in D2 was that runewords and crafts were badly implemented at Expansion launch and runewords only good look at in the patches and over did some of the runewords. They would not be too bad if many of the runes were not duped.
I found that D2 classic had the best items since Rares had the best chance to be the best. A few of the uniques were good and could be used to great effect. Sets were quite weak at the time. Classic also had a better gambling options. You had a good chance at sets and uniques. I found gold find very good during classic days.
It seems to me that Blizzard is looking at Crafting more than they did in D2. We have the artisans that can create items and other things. It is a good way to spend gold and other resources for a chance to get better gear. It also works nicely for the casual player since he/she can upgrade gear that did not dropped to limit the grind of doing mf runs for gear.
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That's another reason why so far we are only having gems, and that's good for a reason.
More space to think about what stuffings other than gem can make builds more colourful, no dominant ingrediants.
Are we talking about the same kind of runeword? Or you're referring to now runes in D3?
I don't really know what you're saying here, but if I understand it correctly you seem to think that there will be uber-powerful, skill-awarding items in D3 like runewords in D2. That won't be the case.
In D3 gear (crafted and dropped), skill runes, gems, and the talisman will make up the items that contribute to your build of skills and traits. I doubt they'll bring back runes as they appeared in D2, but jewels and skulls are a possibilty. However, gems are going to be the only thing you can put in sockets last we heard.
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