I am very worried about the state of CC abilities... Here's why...
1.) No diminishing returns on CC abilities
* This is extremely exploitable with groups of characters. What is going to stop a group of 4 warriors from keeping monsters chain stunned with ground stomp, Mages w/ frost nova, etc.?
* I'm unsure about when the increased resistances start to kick in. Can you exploit chain stun all the way through normal? What about all the way through nightmare? etc. A yes to any of these questions would be a big disappointment. Enemies need diminishing returns on CC effects. There is no reason why a group should be allowed to keep a group of enemies chain stunned.
2.) End game increased resistance of CC abilities
* I am not thrilled with this solution at all. It's better than allowing us to chain stun enemies but it's vastly worse than a diminishing returns system. There are 2 major faults with an increased resistance system
A.) There is nothing less fun than dying because your escape ability (stun, frost nova, etc.) rolled poor RNG and failed. Dying because of RNG and not lack of skill is not a fun system.
B.) Only certain defensive skills are being targeted. This will imbalance the skills that aren't targeted. If you add resistance to a skill like frost nova what will you do to an ability like teleport or mirror images? What happens with this system is that frost nova gets worse but the others remain the same.
Why was this system decided on instead of a simple diminishing returns system? It just seems.... worse on all accounts. Am I missing something?
This isn't an MMO, as such with this type of game that wouldn't be exploiting. That's called being tactical. Yes you're right, that would be easier for a group of barbs to chain stun a group of mobs, and good on them for being able to communicate their rotation. Bosses have an increased resistance to CC abilities though.
All in all, it doesn't really matter at ALL whether a group is able to CC effectively. It won't affect me whether some people are playing as a team.
Edit: You're not helping your case by calling the classes mages and warriors... just sayin.
Double edit: Um, welcome to video games, where EVERYTHING you do is RNG.
Those aren't escape abilities. They're CC. What about Teleport, Spirit Walk, Sprint/leap, vault, tempest rush??
You're arguing something that makes no sense. Of course their are resistances because they're supposed to GET harder on higher difficulties. They want gear to matter so that you don't rely on all those abilities and be glass cannons while avoiding all damage.
And you are missing something. It's called the rest of the game after Skeleton King.
Mobs die so fast, chaining cc on a single group is useless. Even uniques will be dead after to cc skills.
Plus, you need the resource to spam your cc spells while still casting your other damaging spells.
Third, if your group can play so well that they can chain cc every monster, perk for you. Good luck though. I just don't see the tactic working out. And that's coming from someone who chained shockwave in D2.
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Those aren't escape abilities. They're CC. What about Teleport, Spirit Walk, Sprint/leap, vault, tempest rush??
You're arguing something that makes no sense. Of course their are resistances because they're supposed to GET harder on higher difficulties. They want gear to matter so that you don't rely on all those abilities and be glass cannons while avoiding all damage.
And you are missing something. It's called the rest of the game after Skeleton King.
How does it make no sense? If you have one ability that works 50% of the time and one ability that works 100% of the time, which ability would you choose?
Why would you choose horrify over spirit walk in Inferno if Horrify works 50% of the time and spirit walk always works?
Those aren't escape abilities. They're CC. What about Teleport, Spirit Walk, Sprint/leap, vault, tempest rush??
You're arguing something that makes no sense. Of course their are resistances because they're supposed to GET harder on higher difficulties. They want gear to matter so that you don't rely on all those abilities and be glass cannons while avoiding all damage.
And you are missing something. It's called the rest of the game after Skeleton King.
How does it make no sense? If you have one ability that works 50% of the time and one ability that works 100% of the time, which ability would you choose?
Why would you choose horrify over spirit walk in Inferno if Horrify works 50% of the time and spirit walk always works?
because they have completely different uses
To illustrate: Would you take an ability that did 1 DPS 100% of the time or 10000 DPS 50% of the time? Obviously at SOME point there's a line you would cross. Since Horrify and Spirit Walk are different everyone is going to have their own line to decide if 50% is worth it.
I'll drop the 2nd part because it's getting a lot of attention and was really just an afterthought. I understand now that there's a difference between escape and CC abilites (the horrify vs spirit walk situation is still concerning imo), but regardless...
I don't understand how everyone can enjoy such a flawed system. I don't care what so and so game did... can you tell me a REASON why the system is good? I honestly don't understand how it's possible to enjoy such a system. Are you guys saying that you enjoy a system that allows you to keep enemies in a stun lock for 100% of the time? That's fun to you? I'm not trying to be contrary, I just don't understand the point of view.
I'm worried that this stun-lock will be allowed late into the game. So far, we've only received word from bliz that Inferno will have increased resistances to CC effects. When will the increased resistances start? I really hope it's Nightmare but we have no reason to assuming that's the case beyond blind speculation and hence my worry. If nightmare and hell difficulty is negated by cheap tactics, I'll be very disappointed. Why is the game better without diminishing returns? Even in normal, the game would be better with diminishing returns....
It's not like I'm talking about an extreme case either. 3 of the 5 classes have abilities that would allow for a stun-lock scenario.
In case you don't know want I mean by diminishing returns, I mean that the first stun to the monsters does full amount, the next stun does half and then any stun for the next x seconds will do nothing. It's a great system and helps to avoid cheesy stunlock strategies.
After playing a group game with just 1 other barbarian that was using stuns (bash with the clobber rune is a hate generator so you pretty much spam it until it misses then you ground stomp) it was pretty ridiculous how little effort was spent on the skeleton king. Try it out even with the new 1.5 sec stun it's LOL's
If the end of act bosses behave in the same manor it will be quite trivial for an all barb group through normal. Lets face it though I don't think anyone really expects normal to be a challenge.
The problem is that I have seen no mention about diminish returns just about stun resist.
So the question is at what point do stuns become no longer viable, and if end of act bosses or latter mini bosses are immune to stun.
Clobber is amazing, its a lvl 6 rune, in my mind should be a lvl 52 rune - but it's not. So maybe it's only going to be viable through the first difficulty lvl.So unless stun resist is very high like 90% a inferno a group laying down blanket stuns will greatly reduce the amount of time mobs are actively swinging on them.
Or everything will eventually be immune to stun and you will have to trade those abilities out.
Personally I think that knockback and stun will probably work on normal mobs with a chance (10-20%) to work on high end eletie packs and end of act bosses will be immune.
There is also the chance that there will be a cc immune (unstopable?) affix for champion packs... I also expect stuns to get nerfed like they were in wow pvp so you get true diminishing returns (15 sec of cc 15 sec stun immune) However as this is hack and slash we don't know how long it's going to take to kill things at latter difficulty lvls.
All is speculation before may 15th or until blizzard releases more information on it's combat system (I'm very interested in the damage reduction/ slow stacking )
I wouldn't worry too much about it honestly. Blizzard is an exceptionally competent developer and they have some of the more extensive internal testing and iteration in the industry. The tiny bit of D3 which they've publicly shown isn't anywhere near enough to start making sweeping indictments about balance between CC and DPS skills / runes, etc. Tooltips rarely tell the whole story.
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...and if you disagree with me, you're probably <insert random ad hominem attack here>.
Those aren't escape abilities. They're CC. What about Teleport, Spirit Walk, Sprint/leap, vault, tempest rush??
You're arguing something that makes no sense. Of course their are resistances because they're supposed to GET harder on higher difficulties. They want gear to matter so that you don't rely on all those abilities and be glass cannons while avoiding all damage.
And you are missing something. It's called the rest of the game after Skeleton King.
How does it make no sense? If you have one ability that works 50% of the time and one ability that works 100% of the time, which ability would you choose?
Why would you choose horrify over spirit walk in Inferno if Horrify works 50% of the time and spirit walk always works?
You know you can still take damage when you spirit walk? if mobs are near you when you walk your body still takes damage. Its not a get out of jail free card.
I don't understand how everyone can enjoy such a flawed system. I don't care what so and so game did... can you tell me a REASON why the system is good? I honestly don't understand how it's possible to enjoy such a system.
Play it, then judge it. If you hate it that much, don't play it. /care
I have to completely agree.
@ Rappgu
Can YOU tell me why it's a flawed system? You're going around ranting that this system is flawed / broken ect, when you provide no proof. Yes, if timed right a group CAN chain stunlock a mob... And so what? You're not adding anything afterwards.
what you consider "exploiting" is really a way of playing the game. do it! it will benefit you if you can keep it up (no you whont, there will be time where you are your balls are gona get served on a silver plate if you rely to much on CC)
kinda like stacking lifesteal!, its awesome, you never die... untill you cant attack for a few secs...
There's not diminishing returns because CC is not how you play this game. In World of Warcraft (The game that some people think D3 is with a hell themed skin.) diminishing returns are an important and essential part of combat. Without them arena would be pathetic and group dungeons would be significantly easier.
In Diablo 3 (The game we are actually going to be playing on May 15th.) there is ''CC" abilities to get you out of oh shit situations or make a messy situation a little more manageable. While 4 Wizards (Not Mages) in theory could chain frost nova it would be extremely inefficient even in a normal mode setting. The amounts of monsters in a 4 player game are so massive you'll be overrun if you choose to chain frost nova.
TL;DR; This isn't WoW, chain CCing in games of all sizes is extremely inefficient and that's why diminishing returns are not needed.
What's wrong about building a character around crowd control effects, or even a party of characters around it?
It's a perfectly normal strategy and one I suspect will be needed to clear the later difficulties effectively, however, not in the sense you are using (4 Wizards using frost nova). Most of my barbarian will use CC skills. The only real "damage" skill I'll use is Leap and Cleave. A solid mix of CC and damage is always the best for a hack-n-slash.
I seriously doubt act bosses will suffer from chain stuns. Their stats will be elite and I suspect their resistances will be as well (compared to regular monsters) so I don't see Diablo or any other boss for that matter, getting shut into a corner and then get stun-locked to death.
And even if they did, it would be a perfectly viable strategy. However, I don't think the path of least resistance is the path that is most fun.
its definitely "possible" same way people will try to make strange builds, thats what Diablo is made for. (like no hatred demon hunter or max fury barb) they are all "less" viable but might be fun to try it out!
What's wrong about building a character around crowd control effects, or even a party of characters around it?
It's a perfectly normal strategy and one I suspect will be needed to clear the later difficulties effectively, however, not in the sense you are using (4 Wizards using frost nova). Most of my barbarian will use CC skills. The only real "damage" skill I'll use is Leap and Cleave. A solid mix of CC and damage is always the best for a hack-n-slash.
I seriously doubt act bosses will suffer from chain stuns. Their stats will be elite and I suspect their resistances will be as well (compared to regular monsters) so I don't see Diablo or any other boss for that matter, getting shut into a corner and then get stun-locked to death.
And even if they did, it would be a perfectly viable strategy. However, I don't think the path of least resistance is the path that is most fun.
its definitely "possible" same way people will try to make strange builds, thats what Diablo is made for. (like no hatred demon hunter or max fury barb) they are all "less" viable but might be fun to try it out!
Well...to be honest. My builds usually turn out to be the weird ones... :/ And I don't even try.
In MOBAs there is no diminishing returns. DotA and LoL are some of the most successful online competitive games. End of thread?
They also don't give you 8 abilities per hero in DotA and LoL. No DR is fine when you have so few abilities then CDs are much more crippling.
Personally I have no issues with chain CC as Blizzard can always make mobs have DR (or reduced affect right off the bat) on certain affixes if they want, plus as was mentioned, we already have one case of a boss who has reduced CC affect.
In Diablo 3 (The game we are actually going to be playing on May 15th.) there is ''CC" abilities to get you out of oh shit situations or make a messy situation a little more manageable. While 4 Wizards (Not Mages) in theory could chain frost nova it would be extremely inefficient even in a normal mode setting. The amounts of monsters in a 4 player game are so massive you'll be overrun if you choose to chain frost nova.
1. The amount of monsters do not increases with larger party size, only their strength.
2 .The amount of monster would not even matter anyway. Frost Nova have big AoE and no target limits, 4 wiz can effectively perma freeze one hundreds of mobs at once.
3. It's not inefficient. Each will have to cast one frost nova every 12 seconds and pass the other 11.4 seconds killing stuff.
4. This is OBVIOUSLY a imbalance factor. 4 men party would be much superior to smaller parties for the cheer stum locking factor of it. If stum locking is possible, Inferno will be a cakewalk once coordinating CC is easy stuff and with perma stum 99% of the difficulty is gone.
You guys seriously think you will kill mobs on inferno withint 3~4 seconds (before the CC expires) wtf ? Not even in the beta you can kill that fast if you're playing in the taget level and using untwinked gear.
D2 had CC dimishments in nm and hell. Thats an effective way out of the perma stum problem. However because of that CC became totally useless in D2 unless past normal, specially if you're playing solo.
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Faded out her voice and soiled her name
And like marked pages in a diary
Everything seemed clean that is unstained
The incoherent talk of ordinary days
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1.) No diminishing returns on CC abilities
* This is extremely exploitable with groups of characters. What is going to stop a group of 4 warriors from keeping monsters chain stunned with ground stomp, Mages w/ frost nova, etc.?
* I'm unsure about when the increased resistances start to kick in. Can you exploit chain stun all the way through normal? What about all the way through nightmare? etc. A yes to any of these questions would be a big disappointment. Enemies need diminishing returns on CC effects. There is no reason why a group should be allowed to keep a group of enemies chain stunned.
2.) End game increased resistance of CC abilities
* I am not thrilled with this solution at all. It's better than allowing us to chain stun enemies but it's vastly worse than a diminishing returns system. There are 2 major faults with an increased resistance system
A.) There is nothing less fun than dying because your escape ability (stun, frost nova, etc.) rolled poor RNG and failed. Dying because of RNG and not lack of skill is not a fun system.
B.) Only certain defensive skills are being targeted. This will imbalance the skills that aren't targeted. If you add resistance to a skill like frost nova what will you do to an ability like teleport or mirror images? What happens with this system is that frost nova gets worse but the others remain the same.
Why was this system decided on instead of a simple diminishing returns system? It just seems.... worse on all accounts. Am I missing something?
All in all, it doesn't really matter at ALL whether a group is able to CC effectively. It won't affect me whether some people are playing as a team.
Edit: You're not helping your case by calling the classes mages and warriors... just sayin.
Double edit: Um, welcome to video games, where EVERYTHING you do is RNG.
You're arguing something that makes no sense. Of course their are resistances because they're supposed to GET harder on higher difficulties. They want gear to matter so that you don't rely on all those abilities and be glass cannons while avoiding all damage.
And you are missing something. It's called the rest of the game after Skeleton King.
Plus, you need the resource to spam your cc spells while still casting your other damaging spells.
Third, if your group can play so well that they can chain cc every monster, perk for you. Good luck though. I just don't see the tactic working out. And that's coming from someone who chained shockwave in D2.
Find any Diablo news? Contact me or anyone else on the News team
How does it make no sense? If you have one ability that works 50% of the time and one ability that works 100% of the time, which ability would you choose?
Why would you choose horrify over spirit walk in Inferno if Horrify works 50% of the time and spirit walk always works?
because they have completely different uses
To illustrate: Would you take an ability that did 1 DPS 100% of the time or 10000 DPS 50% of the time? Obviously at SOME point there's a line you would cross. Since Horrify and Spirit Walk are different everyone is going to have their own line to decide if 50% is worth it.
I don't understand how everyone can enjoy such a flawed system. I don't care what so and so game did... can you tell me a REASON why the system is good? I honestly don't understand how it's possible to enjoy such a system. Are you guys saying that you enjoy a system that allows you to keep enemies in a stun lock for 100% of the time? That's fun to you? I'm not trying to be contrary, I just don't understand the point of view.
I'm worried that this stun-lock will be allowed late into the game. So far, we've only received word from bliz that Inferno will have increased resistances to CC effects. When will the increased resistances start? I really hope it's Nightmare but we have no reason to assuming that's the case beyond blind speculation and hence my worry. If nightmare and hell difficulty is negated by cheap tactics, I'll be very disappointed. Why is the game better without diminishing returns? Even in normal, the game would be better with diminishing returns....
It's not like I'm talking about an extreme case either. 3 of the 5 classes have abilities that would allow for a stun-lock scenario.
In case you don't know want I mean by diminishing returns, I mean that the first stun to the monsters does full amount, the next stun does half and then any stun for the next x seconds will do nothing. It's a great system and helps to avoid cheesy stunlock strategies.
If the end of act bosses behave in the same manor it will be quite trivial for an all barb group through normal. Lets face it though I don't think anyone really expects normal to be a challenge.
The problem is that I have seen no mention about diminish returns just about stun resist.
So the question is at what point do stuns become no longer viable, and if end of act bosses or latter mini bosses are immune to stun.
Clobber is amazing, its a lvl 6 rune, in my mind should be a lvl 52 rune - but it's not. So maybe it's only going to be viable through the first difficulty lvl.So unless stun resist is very high like 90% a inferno a group laying down blanket stuns will greatly reduce the amount of time mobs are actively swinging on them.
Or everything will eventually be immune to stun and you will have to trade those abilities out.
Personally I think that knockback and stun will probably work on normal mobs with a chance (10-20%) to work on high end eletie packs and end of act bosses will be immune.
There is also the chance that there will be a cc immune (unstopable?) affix for champion packs... I also expect stuns to get nerfed like they were in wow pvp so you get true diminishing returns (15 sec of cc 15 sec stun immune) However as this is hack and slash we don't know how long it's going to take to kill things at latter difficulty lvls.
All is speculation before may 15th or until blizzard releases more information on it's combat system (I'm very interested in the damage reduction/ slow stacking )
We shall see shortly
You know you can still take damage when you spirit walk? if mobs are near you when you walk your body still takes damage. Its not a get out of jail free card.
I have to completely agree.
@ Rappgu
Can YOU tell me why it's a flawed system? You're going around ranting that this system is flawed / broken ect, when you provide no proof. Yes, if timed right a group CAN chain stunlock a mob... And so what? You're not adding anything afterwards.
kinda like stacking lifesteal!, its awesome, you never die... untill you cant attack for a few secs...
A hack-n-slash game like D3 is much more hands-on and diverse, to every stun in this game is a counter available ready at the button.
In Diablo 3 (The game we are actually going to be playing on May 15th.) there is ''CC" abilities to get you out of oh shit situations or make a messy situation a little more manageable. While 4 Wizards (Not Mages) in theory could chain frost nova it would be extremely inefficient even in a normal mode setting. The amounts of monsters in a 4 player game are so massive you'll be overrun if you choose to chain frost nova.
TL;DR; This isn't WoW, chain CCing in games of all sizes is extremely inefficient and that's why diminishing returns are not needed.
Well...to be honest. My builds usually turn out to be the weird ones... :/ And I don't even try.
They also don't give you 8 abilities per hero in DotA and LoL. No DR is fine when you have so few abilities then CDs are much more crippling.
Personally I have no issues with chain CC as Blizzard can always make mobs have DR (or reduced affect right off the bat) on certain affixes if they want, plus as was mentioned, we already have one case of a boss who has reduced CC affect.
1. The amount of monsters do not increases with larger party size, only their strength.
2 .The amount of monster would not even matter anyway. Frost Nova have big AoE and no target limits, 4 wiz can effectively perma freeze one hundreds of mobs at once.
3. It's not inefficient. Each will have to cast one frost nova every 12 seconds and pass the other 11.4 seconds killing stuff.
4. This is OBVIOUSLY a imbalance factor. 4 men party would be much superior to smaller parties for the cheer stum locking factor of it. If stum locking is possible, Inferno will be a cakewalk once coordinating CC is easy stuff and with perma stum 99% of the difficulty is gone.
You guys seriously think you will kill mobs on inferno withint 3~4 seconds (before the CC expires) wtf ? Not even in the beta you can kill that fast if you're playing in the taget level and using untwinked gear.
D2 had CC dimishments in nm and hell. Thats an effective way out of the perma stum problem. However because of that CC became totally useless in D2 unless past normal, specially if you're playing solo.