Like old times. These religious conversations are one of the true staples to the dfans family!
/hugz <3
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"I want to say something but I'll keep it to myself I guess and leave this useless post behind to make you aware that there WAS something... "
-Equinox
"We're like the downtown of the Diablo related internet lol"
-Winged
Like old times. These religious conversations are one of the true staples to the dfans family!
/hugz <3
rofl thanks for the edit on my post.
but in all seriousness you cant look at religion or god with logic or reasoning because there is always parts of it you cant. so this whole debate is obviously pointless from page 1 because i havent seen anyone convince anyoen else of their opinions. lawl, have you? in the 47 pages of this thread
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"once the pretty hardcore gamers we had testing inferno found it fairly difficult, we then we doubled it" -trolololol jay wilson
I'm sorry but what you say about your desires and what you actually say generally is very contradictory. There's nothing objective at all about your stance.
My stance has come from an objective look at the world. I don't think I said my stance was objective? (Maybe I did? My memory becomes worse and worse every day...) Anyway, my stance is anything but objective. That being said, if there was empirical evidence of the existence of the god of the Bible, Quran, TaNaKh, or Bagavad Gita, then I would convert to that religion immediately. The chances of that evidence ever showing up, though, are very very slim from what I can tell. But if it does, I'll be the first to say that I was wrong.
I think "a thirst for information" would be more appropriate than "a thirst for knowledge". It almost sounds like you went from one extreme to another. This may not be true, but the way you mock the religion presents this image of you(at least to me) that says you're a person with such an extreme view that you have zero respect for the Christian religion specifically. Which doesn't look like an objective stance at all. It looks more like you just picked a different side to be on, so you mock the other side.
I'm sorry, I'm not sure I understand the difference in information and knowledge?
And Christianity is not alone. I have similar views of Islam as well. I am currently studying Judaism and Hinduism. If either of them make sense and agree with the world, then I will convert. If they are in opposition to the world, then I will laugh at them. This is the only way I can deal with absurd claims.
I guess a good analogy would be a football player and a geek. You're more reminiscent of the football player who mocks the geek for not being macho like him. As opposed to the football player who knows what it's like to be on the other side. They're both football players, but one has this distinct and delusional sense of identity.
Actually, reverse the roles. Religion is the football player, and I am the geek. The difference is that Atheists (the geeks) are finally starting to go to the gyms and bulk up.
Personally, I was pretty religious as a well as a child. Being raised Jehovah's Witness I went door to door proselytizing. However as I grew older I became more aware of what I could and could not ever truly know. The existence of god being one of them. If it was to be on a spectrum, I am still closer to to the religious side. I know I can't know anything. But I can have good information from science. And I can have good inquisition from philosophy. From there I decided that I believe in consciousness. Ergo, I believe in the soul. Which in turn still leads me to believe in an afterlife of some sort of fashion.
Well, Richard Dawkins has a scale of 1 to 7 where 1 is absolutely believe in any deity, and 7 is absolutely no belief in any deity. He puts himself at 6.5, but I do disagree with him. I'm closer actually to 6. While I think there is no deity, and I am almost 100% certain there is no deity, I cannot know for certain, and the uncertainty is enough to keep me wondering. Does that make sense?
But. I know I can't know any of that. And, if none of that is true, that's ok. I'll have a wonderful eternal rest. I don't really know where I'm going with this honestly...I just don't understand all the animosity. People will be people. Of course they will willingly believe something they have no true knowledge of. That's no reason to pick on them. As a whole, we're not very intelligent.
i condemn christianity as a whole for the same reasons i condemn black people as a whole
93% that ive met are fucked up, its just easier to hate them as a whole.
why do stereotypes exist? because they are TRUTHHHHHH.......................... most of the time
That's...not cool...
Go somewhere else and talk about that, because that's not right. There are very good people that are Christian, just as there are very good people that are black.
Personally, I was pretty religious as a well as a child. Being raised Jehovah's Witness I went door to door proselytizing. However as I grew older I became more aware of what I could and could not ever truly know. The existence of god being one of them. If it was to be on a spectrum, I am still closer to to the religious side. I know I can't know anything. But I can have good information from science. And I can have good inquisition from philosophy. From there I decided that I believe in consciousness. Ergo, I believe in the soul. Which in turn still leads me to believe in an afterlife of some sort of fashion.
This whole paragraph confuses me. You know you can't know anything? Why do you not think you can know anything? Is this a "there are no absolute truth's" type of mindset?
Also i don't understand how belief in consciousness leads to belief in a soul. Are you implying that a soul is a synonym for consciousness? If not what is the difference between the two and why does one lead to another? Just curious.
Go somewhere else and talk about that, because that's not right. There are very good people that are Christian, just as there are very good people that are black.
Very, very uncool dude.
uncool indeed because its true. its a very sad truth. i went to a dozen christian churches over the course of 7 years and met THOUSANDS of people and the majority were judgemental ass holes who had there priorities and morals backwards. they would say one thing and do the opposite and cause massive amounts of uneeded drama. sure there was some great people i met but unforunately A LOT more bad ones than good
and the thing about black ppl is one of those things most people dont say out loud or in public but most ppl agree with, ive met tons of them and the regular cool black people even hate most other black people. because its "cool" to be an ignorant 'gangsta' and thats what black teens are taught and showed through the media and tv. if your not gangster your not "black". ive heard this so much, i currently work with 90% black people and i have these same conversations with them and they are the ones who bring it up. they say "ya i used to be like that, i thought i had to act like that to be "black" and if i didnt then my "brothers" wouldnt accept me". this is even more true for black teens in lower income area's.
again its very sad. but unfortunately true.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"once the pretty hardcore gamers we had testing inferno found it fairly difficult, we then we doubled it" -trolololol jay wilson
Personally, I was pretty religious as a well as a child. Being raised Jehovah's Witness I went door to door proselytizing. However as I grew older I became more aware of what I could and could not ever truly know. The existence of god being one of them. If it was to be on a spectrum, I am still closer to to the religious side. I know I can't know anything. But I can have good information from science. And I can have good inquisition from philosophy. From there I decided that I believe in consciousness. Ergo, I believe in the soul. Which in turn still leads me to believe in an afterlife of some sort of fashion.
This whole paragraph confuses me. You know you can't know anything? Why do you not think you can know anything? Is this a "there are no absolute truth's" type of mindset?
Also i don't understand how belief in consciousness leads to belief in a soul. Are you implying that a soul is a synonym for consciousness? If not what is the difference between the two and why does one lead to another? Just curious.
I think there are absolute truths by definition. But as far as having knowledge of anything other than math and a square having to be a square in order to be a square, there is no way to know that a solipsistic view on the universe isn't valid. If you think you know something, you have not explored what it means to know something.
Maybe go do some research of your own on consciousness and where it stands today in the scientific and philosophical fields! To keep things short, I will simply say that I believe consciousness to be the essence of a person that is a real thing. And I believe this. I do not know it. That's important to say because I want to stress that I don't think I know it in the slightest. I would elaborate on how I reached that conclusion if it wasn't in a stale thread. Maybe if it was framed in a way that was more compelling. Like a new thread.
@Linkx- Not pissed, just curious.
"Actually, reverse the roles. Religion is the football player, and I am the geek. The difference is that Atheists (the geeks) are finally starting to go to the gyms and bulk up."
This is the most important quote from you. This alludes even more to what I was initially suggesting. You put yourself in the role of the bullied. Psychologically this makes perfect sense concerning your view on Christianity. While you may not think you are picking on anybody, you cannot deny that people tend to think that you do in fact have disdain for Christianity. In that quote you are showcasing yourself as a person who has been prosecuted by Christians. There's got to be something there. It seems like it has to be more personal than just a bunch of online arguments.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"I want to say something but I'll keep it to myself I guess and leave this useless post behind to make you aware that there WAS something... "
-Equinox
"We're like the downtown of the Diablo related internet lol"
-Winged
I think there are absolute truths by definition. But as far as having knowledge of anything other than math and a square having to be a square in order to be a square, there is no way to know that a solipsistic view on the universe isn't valid. If you think you know something, you have not explored what it means to know something.
Maybe go do some research of your own on consciousness and where it stands today in the scientific and philosophical fields! To keep things short, I will simply say that I believe consciousness to be the essence of a person that is a real thing. And I believe this. I do not know it. That's important to say because I want to stress that I don't think I know it in the slightest. I would elaborate on how I reached that conclusion if it wasn't in a stale thread. Maybe if it was framed in a way that was more compelling. Like a new thread.
I guess to me, i find philosophy completely and utterly pointless. Its a personal thing, and no offense intended in any way. I believe what there is evidence for, something tangible. I believe in time, whether years, decades, or even centuries from now, as the human brain(and brains in general) are better understood in how they function, consciousness will be defined, in a scientific way, no different then that laws of physics, or math. The belief that this is possible is to me what makes pursuit of scientific knowledge a worth while cause. To me, conciousness is only a function of the brain and its complexity which we have only begun to scratch the surface of knowing how it all works.
Ya, it's hard for some to get past that initial thought on philosophy.
I blame this on language and the words with the emotional and historical and stereotypical attachments they hold.
It takes a pretty thorough understanding of the philosophy and the history of it's patrons to understand WHY they were doing what they were doing. It's not to say that we should ignore convention. They were human just as we are. When you examine philosophy at it's core, and then look at science and the puzzling questions that it raises it's clear as day that they fit together. They don't oppose one another at all. Philosophy isn't meant to pass judgement on anything. It's as objective as science. It merely asks the questions. And simply by asking questions, very smart people were able to come to conclusions that led to even more intriguing questions. There's a reason Descartes and Locke are still famous names.
And again, before you make that assumption, there is a lot of recent developments in the science behind understanding(rather, lack there of) consciousness. It's very subtle, but I'll point it out. To say that consciousness is merely a function is a leap of an assumption that has no substantial basis whatsoever in the field of science or convention. You're treating the topic in a manner that suites your understanding. But it's just not that easy. There's strong evidence that consciousness is not a thing confined within our body.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"I want to say something but I'll keep it to myself I guess and leave this useless post behind to make you aware that there WAS something... "
-Equinox
"We're like the downtown of the Diablo related internet lol"
-Winged
"Actually, reverse the roles. Religion is the football player, and I am the geek. The difference is that Atheists (the geeks) are finally starting to go to the gyms and bulk up."
This is the most important quote from you. This alludes even more to what I was initially suggesting. You put yourself in the role of the bullied. Psychologically this makes perfect sense concerning your view on Christianity. While you may not think you are picking on anybody, you cannot deny that people tend to think that you do in fact have disdain for Christianity. In that quote you are showcasing yourself as a person who has been prosecuted by Christians. There's got to be something there. It seems like it has to be more personal than just a bunch of online arguments.
You misunderstand me. I don't mean to say that I personally am bullied. Non-religious in general have, for centuries been the ones at gun and sword point. Recently religion has begun to loose it's grip on the world and it is freaking out.
And yes, Atheism has been persecuted by Christianity, this is a fact. I have not, because most of my life I was on the religious side, and sense my "coming out of the closet" I have had no animosity towards me (and thus give none) from any Christians in my town.
No matter what the truth is, it is still the truth. The truth has always been the truth and always will be. No matter what we BELIEVE to be true. No matter what we want to be true. Since the beginning, the truth has been the truth before we could even conceive of such a perplexing issue. No matter how any of us feel, it does not matter.
So why bother worrying about who is right or wrong? I don't really care anymore what people believe. I mean, I'm interested, but my view of a person won't change based on their belief. They might be right, they might be wrong.
Whether they are or not, the answer has been the answer long before the question was posed.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"I want to say something but I'll keep it to myself I guess and leave this useless post behind to make you aware that there WAS something... "
-Equinox
"We're like the downtown of the Diablo related internet lol"
-Winged
People, all of this is completely pointless. Asking for proof equals asking for logic.
Every single person out there with half logic is already atheist, unless they still need religion for something.
Religion addresses :
- the death problem : eternal life
- the loss problem (related to death) : everybody meets up there
- the origin of the universe problem : created
- the origin of life problem : created
- the meaning of life problem : pray/love
- the feeling of nothingness problem : the universe was created just for us humans
- the loneliness problem : God is always with you
- etc...
Every single human fear is addressed in a pretty tale, and you are still wondering why people believe ?
Answer : because there is at least one of these points for which they need religion to comfort them.
Next problem
This guy's got life figured out!! I wish I was more like him. Who needs self awareness and critical thinking when you have such conviction! Not this guy.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"I want to say something but I'll keep it to myself I guess and leave this useless post behind to make you aware that there WAS something... "
-Equinox
"We're like the downtown of the Diablo related internet lol"
-Winged
People, all of this is completely pointless. Asking for proof equals asking for logic.
Every single person out there with half logic is already atheist...
Wrong. Using logic alone would likely lead to agnosticism. You cannot prove a negative, i.e., you cannot disprove the existence of a deity, so it would be illogical to believe that God does not exist (you can certainly believe it to be unlikely, but the two are very different). You simply cannot know, so the question is outside the realm of logic.
I never did understand Atheists though. Their beliefs are just as illogical as those they constantly call illogical.
It is possible to be 'atheist,' without a belief of any kind. Atheist is an umbrella term that covers everyone who doesn't think there need be a god for the universe to function. I know most folks would say that's agnosticism, but agnostics assume there can be no answer to the question. I say there may well be an answer, but nobody has found it, therefor we should not presume to know. Certainly if an answer is out there, it is in science and rationalism rather than fictional documents from the ancient past.
I'm more interested in who's behind the god (that is if god exists at all) and how far that pattern goes. What is god's purpose beyond creation and (not that perfect) moderation? And more interesting is - who gave him this purpose? If we were created by god than why did this happened when it happened? Why not earlier? And what circumstances led to god suddenly snapping out of dormancy and starting creating things? And if there were any circumstances - what/who triggered them? And if there were none and god started working as soon as he appeared than what triggered his birth? Was he part of something else? Who created that something else?
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93% that ive met are fucked up, its just easier to hate them as a whole.
why do stereotypes exist? because they are TRUTHHHHHH.......................... most of the time
omfg.................BLACK CHRISTIANS!??! apocolypse meow
/sarcasm
/hugz <3
-Equinox
"We're like the downtown of the Diablo related internet lol"
-Winged
rofl thanks for the edit on my post.
but in all seriousness you cant look at religion or god with logic or reasoning because there is always parts of it you cant. so this whole debate is obviously pointless from page 1 because i havent seen anyone convince anyoen else of their opinions. lawl, have you? in the 47 pages of this thread
My stance has come from an objective look at the world. I don't think I said my stance was objective? (Maybe I did? My memory becomes worse and worse every day...) Anyway, my stance is anything but objective. That being said, if there was empirical evidence of the existence of the god of the Bible, Quran, TaNaKh, or Bagavad Gita, then I would convert to that religion immediately. The chances of that evidence ever showing up, though, are very very slim from what I can tell. But if it does, I'll be the first to say that I was wrong.
I'm sorry, I'm not sure I understand the difference in information and knowledge?
And Christianity is not alone. I have similar views of Islam as well. I am currently studying Judaism and Hinduism. If either of them make sense and agree with the world, then I will convert. If they are in opposition to the world, then I will laugh at them. This is the only way I can deal with absurd claims.
Actually, reverse the roles. Religion is the football player, and I am the geek. The difference is that Atheists (the geeks) are finally starting to go to the gyms and bulk up.
Well, Richard Dawkins has a scale of 1 to 7 where 1 is absolutely believe in any deity, and 7 is absolutely no belief in any deity. He puts himself at 6.5, but I do disagree with him. I'm closer actually to 6. While I think there is no deity, and I am almost 100% certain there is no deity, I cannot know for certain, and the uncertainty is enough to keep me wondering. Does that make sense?
I don't think I am picking on anybody?
That's...not cool...
Go somewhere else and talk about that, because that's not right. There are very good people that are Christian, just as there are very good people that are black.
Very, very uncool dude.
This whole paragraph confuses me. You know you can't know anything? Why do you not think you can know anything? Is this a "there are no absolute truth's" type of mindset?
Also i don't understand how belief in consciousness leads to belief in a soul. Are you implying that a soul is a synonym for consciousness? If not what is the difference between the two and why does one lead to another? Just curious.
uncool indeed because its true. its a very sad truth. i went to a dozen christian churches over the course of 7 years and met THOUSANDS of people and the majority were judgemental ass holes who had there priorities and morals backwards. they would say one thing and do the opposite and cause massive amounts of uneeded drama. sure there was some great people i met but unforunately A LOT more bad ones than good
and the thing about black ppl is one of those things most people dont say out loud or in public but most ppl agree with, ive met tons of them and the regular cool black people even hate most other black people. because its "cool" to be an ignorant 'gangsta' and thats what black teens are taught and showed through the media and tv. if your not gangster your not "black". ive heard this so much, i currently work with 90% black people and i have these same conversations with them and they are the ones who bring it up. they say "ya i used to be like that, i thought i had to act like that to be "black" and if i didnt then my "brothers" wouldnt accept me". this is even more true for black teens in lower income area's.
again its very sad. but unfortunately true.
I think there are absolute truths by definition. But as far as having knowledge of anything other than math and a square having to be a square in order to be a square, there is no way to know that a solipsistic view on the universe isn't valid. If you think you know something, you have not explored what it means to know something.
Maybe go do some research of your own on consciousness and where it stands today in the scientific and philosophical fields! To keep things short, I will simply say that I believe consciousness to be the essence of a person that is a real thing. And I believe this. I do not know it. That's important to say because I want to stress that I don't think I know it in the slightest. I would elaborate on how I reached that conclusion if it wasn't in a stale thread. Maybe if it was framed in a way that was more compelling. Like a new thread.
@Linkx- Not pissed, just curious.
"Actually, reverse the roles. Religion is the football player, and I am the geek. The difference is that Atheists (the geeks) are finally starting to go to the gyms and bulk up."
This is the most important quote from you. This alludes even more to what I was initially suggesting. You put yourself in the role of the bullied. Psychologically this makes perfect sense concerning your view on Christianity. While you may not think you are picking on anybody, you cannot deny that people tend to think that you do in fact have disdain for Christianity. In that quote you are showcasing yourself as a person who has been prosecuted by Christians. There's got to be something there. It seems like it has to be more personal than just a bunch of online arguments.
-Equinox
"We're like the downtown of the Diablo related internet lol"
-Winged
I guess to me, i find philosophy completely and utterly pointless. Its a personal thing, and no offense intended in any way. I believe what there is evidence for, something tangible. I believe in time, whether years, decades, or even centuries from now, as the human brain(and brains in general) are better understood in how they function, consciousness will be defined, in a scientific way, no different then that laws of physics, or math. The belief that this is possible is to me what makes pursuit of scientific knowledge a worth while cause. To me, conciousness is only a function of the brain and its complexity which we have only begun to scratch the surface of knowing how it all works.
I blame this on language and the words with the emotional and historical and stereotypical attachments they hold.
It takes a pretty thorough understanding of the philosophy and the history of it's patrons to understand WHY they were doing what they were doing. It's not to say that we should ignore convention. They were human just as we are. When you examine philosophy at it's core, and then look at science and the puzzling questions that it raises it's clear as day that they fit together. They don't oppose one another at all. Philosophy isn't meant to pass judgement on anything. It's as objective as science. It merely asks the questions. And simply by asking questions, very smart people were able to come to conclusions that led to even more intriguing questions. There's a reason Descartes and Locke are still famous names.
And again, before you make that assumption, there is a lot of recent developments in the science behind understanding(rather, lack there of) consciousness. It's very subtle, but I'll point it out. To say that consciousness is merely a function is a leap of an assumption that has no substantial basis whatsoever in the field of science or convention. You're treating the topic in a manner that suites your understanding. But it's just not that easy. There's strong evidence that consciousness is not a thing confined within our body.
-Equinox
"We're like the downtown of the Diablo related internet lol"
-Winged
You misunderstand me. I don't mean to say that I personally am bullied. Non-religious in general have, for centuries been the ones at gun and sword point. Recently religion has begun to loose it's grip on the world and it is freaking out.
And yes, Atheism has been persecuted by Christianity, this is a fact. I have not, because most of my life I was on the religious side, and sense my "coming out of the closet" I have had no animosity towards me (and thus give none) from any Christians in my town.
Guess I could of worded that line better though.
This is how I look at it all in the big picture:
No matter what the truth is, it is still the truth. The truth has always been the truth and always will be. No matter what we BELIEVE to be true. No matter what we want to be true. Since the beginning, the truth has been the truth before we could even conceive of such a perplexing issue. No matter how any of us feel, it does not matter.
So why bother worrying about who is right or wrong? I don't really care anymore what people believe. I mean, I'm interested, but my view of a person won't change based on their belief. They might be right, they might be wrong.
Whether they are or not, the answer has been the answer long before the question was posed.
-Equinox
"We're like the downtown of the Diablo related internet lol"
-Winged
This guy's got life figured out!! I wish I was more like him. Who needs self awareness and critical thinking when you have such conviction! Not this guy.
-Equinox
"We're like the downtown of the Diablo related internet lol"
-Winged
Wrong. Using logic alone would likely lead to agnosticism. You cannot prove a negative, i.e., you cannot disprove the existence of a deity, so it would be illogical to believe that God does not exist (you can certainly believe it to be unlikely, but the two are very different). You simply cannot know, so the question is outside the realm of logic.
Either way though, this thread is stupid.
It's far more amusing than stupid.
...Schmaybe.
I never did understand Atheists though. Their beliefs are just as illogical as those they constantly call illogical.
It is possible to be 'atheist,' without a belief of any kind. Atheist is an umbrella term that covers everyone who doesn't think there need be a god for the universe to function. I know most folks would say that's agnosticism, but agnostics assume there can be no answer to the question. I say there may well be an answer, but nobody has found it, therefor we should not presume to know. Certainly if an answer is out there, it is in science and rationalism rather than fictional documents from the ancient past.