"Difficulty Scaling in Multiplayer
How will the game's difficulty increase with more players in the game? The team has said that it will increase considerably, to the point that playing solo in a group game will be a very bad idea. But what mechanism will create this? More monster hit points? More monster damage? Improved AI?
That's not been revealed, but @Diablo did confirm, in November 2010, that difficulty was probably going to be based on the number of players in the game, not their Clvl. [4]"
IF the monsters did NOT get stronger then it would be catering toward "group play" which blizzard has stated they are NOT catering one way or the other, encouraging group play but not making it so groups is 100% the best/fastest way to get gear like it is required in World of Warcraft. if you want to play in a group, play in a group, or solo, play solo. if say you are pretty well geared and skilled or not, and you go into a group of 3 newbs/scrubs then it WILL be slower or if even half your group is good and half is bad - you'd be a lot better off soloing. but OBVIOUSLY if you are in a group of 3 veterans who are geared it will be easier to get gear then solo, but what are the chances you join a random group of 3 other really well geared players? slim even later after games release. so soloing is the "safest" (at least at the start) to get the best gear if you are good VS pug's
DISCLAIMER: if anyone has any new update on this information then post it please. i want this to be an informative thread not arguing over anything
It just makes sense for the game to scale with more people.
I've heard that the beta doesn't, but then again, it is the beta. I think, when we actually get the game at release time we will be quite amazed at how much they've actually changed things in comparison to how they are currently in the beta.
DISCLAIMER: if anyone has any new update on this information then post it please. i want this to be an informative thread not arguing over anything
I can say from experience, and past blue posts that more often than not playing in a group is the fastest way to slay monsters. Even when I join games in the beta with lower level characters who are badly geared, we still take out mobs faster than when I solo runs at max level with very high gear.
Yes, creatures scale = # of players (we've known this for a very long time), but the scale isn't high enough to make playing a group as difficult as playing alone. In other words, creatures do not have 4x HP with four players in game, it seems to be closer to 2.5x or so.
It just makes sense for the game to scale with more people.I've heard that the beta doesn't, but then again, it is the beta. I think, when we actually get the game at release time we will be quite amazed at how much they've actually changed things in comparison to how they are currently in the beta.
Monsters do scale with player numbers in the Beta. This is even identified by a text marker on the bottom left of the screen the same as Diablo 2 displaying "-Player Name- Has joined the game, the minions of Hell grow stronger", or something along that line.
I'm remembering that they said some time ago that they want to encourage players to play multiplayer by giving team based play loot in a quicker phase, therefore more loot. And without difficulty scaling, therefore it would be hard to solo. I guess things have changed, they sure change their minds often.
I personally do not recall ever hearing that. For a long time it has been that loot drops are the exact same when playing solo, or in a full game. The only benifit to playing with others is even with the monsters scaled up, you're still going to be mowing down mobs faster than you would be with less players, thus killing more monsters per minute, end result being more chances to drop loot.
“We act as though comfort and luxury were the chief requirements of life, when all that we need to make us happy is something to be enthusiastic about.” - Albert Einstein
I'm remembering that they said some time ago that they want to encourage players to play multiplayer by giving team based play loot in a quicker phase, therefore more loot. And without difficulty scaling, therefore it would be hard to solo. I guess things have changed, they sure change their minds often.
they never changed their minds, its always been "monsters will scale with more people, but more people means its easier to kill groups of monsters faster and therefor you will get loot quicker, loot does not drop more frequently with more people you can just kill monsters faster even though they are stronger then if you are by yourself". and as i stated it will be easier to solo to get more loot VS 3 random ppl that aren't that great. blizzard says this in the sense you have 4 equally decent players in a group, if you have 1-3 baddies in the group it will make the killing a lot slower therefor LESS loot in groups VS solo
DISCLAIMER: if anyone has any new update on this information then post it please. i want this to be an informative thread not arguing over anything
I can say from experience, and past blue posts that more often than not playing in a group is the fastest way to slay monsters. Even when I join games in the beta with lower level characters who are badly geared, we still take out mobs faster than when I solo runs at max level with very high gear.
Yes, creatures scale = # of players (we've known this for a very long time), but the scale isn't high enough to make playing a group as difficult as playing alone. In other words, creatures do not have 4x HP with four players in game, it seems to be closer to 2.5x or so.
It just makes sense for the game to scale with more people.I've heard that the beta doesn't, but then again, it is the beta. I think, when we actually get the game at release time we will be quite amazed at how much they've actually changed things in comparison to how they are currently in the beta.
Monsters do scale with player numbers in the Beta. This is even identified by a text marker on the bottom left of the screen the same as Diablo 2 displaying "-Player Name- Has joined the game, the minions of Hell grow stronger", or something along that line.
I'm remembering that they said some time ago that they want to encourage players to play multiplayer by giving team based play loot in a quicker phase, therefore more loot. And without difficulty scaling, therefore it would be hard to solo. I guess things have changed, they sure change their minds often.
I personally do not recall ever hearing that. For a long time it has been that loot drops are the exact same when playing solo, or in a full game. The only benifit to playing with others is even with the monsters scaled up, you're still going to be mowing down mobs faster than you would be with less players, thus killing more monsters per minute, end result being more chances to drop loot.
you have to remember that the beta monsters do not seem to scale at all with more people, ALSO its merely 1/3rd of the first act of NORMAL mode which is SUPPOSED to be VERY easy and very simple. monsters scaling in hell and inferno will make it 10x harder then scaling in normal. maybe in inferno 500 dmg turned into 2500 dmg from a monster could possibly one shot one of the group and then oh no you have 3 ppl, and then if multiple people die at once... ect.. so you simply cannot compare scaling in normal to the final supposedly "super hard" last difficulty which is what I'm referring to.
- . and as i stated it will be easier to solo to get more loot VS 3 random ppl that aren't that great. blizzard says this in the sense you have 4 equally decent players in a group, if you have 1-3 baddies in the group it will make the killing a lot slower therefor LESS loot in groups VS solo
Again, speaking from experience in the beta (which could change in release for all we know) even with three "baddies", as long as they are actively playing and not just standing around, you put down mobs noticeably quicker than while soloing, even at max level with very high gear.
It's only when the group splits up, or isn't all focusing on the same group of mobiles that the rate in which you kill monsters drops low enough to where soloing could be a better option.
“We act as though comfort and luxury were the chief requirements of life, when all that we need to make us happy is something to be enthusiastic about.” - Albert Einstein
- . and as i stated it will be easier to solo to get more loot VS 3 random ppl that aren't that great. blizzard says this in the sense you have 4 equally decent players in a group, if you have 1-3 baddies in the group it will make the killing a lot slower therefor LESS loot in groups VS solo
Again, speaking from experience in the beta (which could change in release for all we know) even with three "baddies", as long as they are actively playing and not just standing around, you put down mobs noticeably quicker than while soloing, even at max level with very high gear.
It's only when the group splits up, or isn't all focusing on the same group of mobiles that the rate in which you kill monsters drops low enough to where soloing could be a better option.
like i said in my last reply to your post, you cannot compare the beta to the final game and especially can't compare normal (IE super easy mode) to inferno (super hard mode). scaling will be exponentially greater in inferno then normal.
- . and as i stated it will be easier to solo to get more loot VS 3 random ppl that aren't that great. blizzard says this in the sense you have 4 equally decent players in a group, if you have 1-3 baddies in the group it will make the killing a lot slower therefor LESS loot in groups VS solo
Again, speaking from experience in the beta (which could change in release for all we know) even with three "baddies", as long as they are actively playing and not just standing around, you put down mobs noticeably quicker than while soloing, even at max level with very high gear.
It's only when the group splits up, or isn't all focusing on the same group of mobiles that the rate in which you kill monsters drops low enough to where soloing could be a better option.
like i said in my last reply to your post, you cannot compare the beta to the final game and especially can't compare normal (IE super easy mode) to inferno (super hard mode). scaling will be exponentially greater in inferno then normal.
On the contrary, the Beta is the only thing we have to truly judge off of, anything else isn't as much judging as it is speculation.
That being said, yes Normal won't reflect the same scaling as the other three difficulties will have. Just because normal scales to 3.75% HP monster heath at four players doesn't mean that will hold true in other difficulties. There are too many numerical differences that will likely take place to make such confident assumptions right now.
Looking at this concept of creature scaling from a developer point of view, one would think they would rather entice people to play with others rather than play alone. Especially considering how hard they push the notion of Diablo being a cooperative game. So in that light, it would make sense for them to adjust scaling so it would be beneficial to play with others even if they are not as well geared, or skilled as you.
It wouldn't make much sense to scale creatues so it would only be beneficial if you are partied with equally progressed players now would it?
If your point is if you get stuck with very bad players you're better off playing alone, than yes I can agree with that. But, the chances of you getting stuck play 3 players who are so bad it would be better off to just play alone as it stands now is extremely rare.
It is only logical to support the notion of a cooperative game with the added benefits of playing with others to be universal, and if anything more so in later difficulties.
“We act as though comfort and luxury were the chief requirements of life, when all that we need to make us happy is something to be enthusiastic about.” - Albert Einstein
I personally do not recall ever hearing that. For a long time it has been that loot drops are the exact same when playing solo, or in a full game. The only benifit to playing with others is even with the monsters scaled up, you're still going to be mowing down mobs faster than you would be with less players, thus killing more monsters per minute, end result being more chances to drop loot.
That was my point.
I thought you meant that in a large group the drop%s themselves were bumped, misunderstanding.
“We act as though comfort and luxury were the chief requirements of life, when all that we need to make us happy is something to be enthusiastic about.” - Albert Einstein
- . and as i stated it will be easier to solo to get more loot VS 3 random ppl that aren't that great. blizzard says this in the sense you have 4 equally decent players in a group, if you have 1-3 baddies in the group it will make the killing a lot slower therefor LESS loot in groups VS solo
Again, speaking from experience in the beta (which could change in release for all we know) even with three "baddies", as long as they are actively playing and not just standing around, you put down mobs noticeably quicker than while soloing, even at max level with very high gear.
It's only when the group splits up, or isn't all focusing on the same group of mobiles that the rate in which you kill monsters drops low enough to where soloing could be a better option.
like i said in my last reply to your post, you cannot compare the beta to the final game and especially can't compare normal (IE super easy mode) to inferno (super hard mode). scaling will be exponentially greater in inferno then normal.
On the contrary, the Beta is the only thing we have to truly judge off of, anything else isn't as much judging as it is speculation.
That being said, yes Normal won't reflect the same scaling as the other three difficulties will have. Just because normal scales to 3.75% HP monster heath at four players doesn't mean that will hold true in other difficulties. There are too many numerical differences that will likely take place to make such confident assumptions right now.
Looking at this concept of creature scaling from a developer point of view, one would think they would rather entice people to play with others rather than play alone. Especially considering how hard they push the notion of Diablo being a cooperative game. So in that light, it would make sense for them to adjust scaling so it would be beneficial to play with others even if they are not as well geared, or skilled as you.
It wouldn't make much sense to scale creatues so it would only be beneficial if you are partied with equally progressed players now would it?
If your point is if you get stuck with very bad players you're better off playing alone, than yes I can agree with that. But, the chances of you getting stuck play 3 players who are so bad it would be better off to just play alone as it stands now is extremely rare.
It is only logical to support the notion of a cooperative game with the added benefits of playing with others to be universal, and if anything more so in later difficulties.
the beta shouldn't even be a judging tool considering its a "test" and MANY things will change entirely and yes again the higher difficulties. and blizzard has said they are not making it so its a lot better to play in groups then solo. the game is "potentially just as easily solo able as with a group". also any thread on this entire forum is "speculation" considering the game isn't done. jay wilson commented on this because he was asked if "playing in groups would be the quickest way to the best gear?" and he replied saying there "strongly encouraging group play" but they are not making it so the people who like to solo are going to be 'hindered' or 'behind' on the gear race then others who play in groups. therefor i believe my original theory is still correct.
on a side note. considering MOST ppl who are playing ANY game aren't that great, because if everyone was good then no one would be good. if you get what i mean. "good" wouldn't be "good". so the people who are "good" are by definition the "few" therefor no it won't be rare at all to end up in an entire group of baddies, especially in the initial months of release. the only way the majority of the community would be "good" is if diablo ends up being INCREDIBLY easy overall. which would be an epic let down and failure
example: even tho everyone hates the comparison (wow). in WoW i que'd for literally thousands of "heroic" dungeons for groups over the years, and in that time i RARELY encountered an entire group of geared people, even years after wotlk was out i rarely got dungeons with veterans. <5% of the time. and id say AT LEAST 50%+ of the time i ended up with an ENTIRE group of newbs/scrubs. and then 15% of the time i had mostly geared people. so this game will be no different, possibly a lot worse considering you don't have to have a certain "gear level" like wow does to join a random game with people.
I personally don't see much foundation to your view. Everything we know of now points to faster killing in a group atmosphere, be it a small difference or not.
“We act as though comfort and luxury were the chief requirements of life, when all that we need to make us happy is something to be enthusiastic about.” - Albert Einstein
I personally don't see much foundation to your view. Everything we know of now points to faster killing in a group atmosphere, be it a small difference or not.
i really can't see how you can say that considering i proved my point three times over that it will only be faster killing if your grouped with decent people. and considering blizz themselves have said there not "catering to groups for gear race". lol
I'm remembering that they said some time ago that they want to encourage players to play multiplayer by giving team based play loot in a quicker phase, therefore more loot. And without difficulty scaling, therefore it would be hard to solo. I guess things have changed, they sure change their minds often.
This. Part of the fun of Blizzard is knowing that everything they say six months out will not happen
I don't see much reason not to group up anymore, especially in hardcore. Most of the issues involved in grouping in diablo 2 involved loot competition and town killers.
Now that loot is not shared at all, shrine buffs are shared within a certain range, and the only form of griefing I can forsee would be to set up some kind of monster killing trap with a summoning banner which can be completely avoidable, why wouldn't you pug it up for faster, safer loots?
One thing I have not tested is exp change based on number of players. The + experience items don't seem to get x4 when there are four people in game though. (lowbie mobs still only give 2 or 3 exp + your item total) Will look into this.
I personally don't see much foundation to your view. Everything we know of now points to faster killing in a group atmosphere, be it a small difference or not.
i really can't see how you can say that considering i proved my point three times over that it will only be faster killing if your grouped with decent people. and considering blizz themselves have said there not "catering to groups for gear race". lol
There is no hands-on proof in anything right now other than the Beta, in which I've found the opposite to be true; being that no matter what level my team mates are, we accomplish slaying faster.
As for Blizzard saying otherwise, I have to ask you to please site where you're getting this information, because the opposite is stated right on Blizzards' new Diablo 3 site homepage in an article detailing cooperative played, and monster scaling among blue posts on the official forums, and at Blizzcon.
This is the most up-to-date word we have on this topic, and considering it's in an article on the very homepage of Blizzards' brand new site, it would be foolish to overlook it as something they plan to change, or overshadow it with your own theories on a topic they have clearly stated how they plan to handle. When you combine the many times they have publicly stated this in Blue posts by Bashiok, Blizzcon 2010, and now home page articles, I don't see how it can be overlooked.
As for this very latest time we've seen this stated, I'm refering to the second parigraph, which states:
Official Blizzard Quote:
Most importantly, although monsters get tougher as additional friends come to help bash the demonic hell spawn lumbering toward you, you’ll kill more monsters faster as long as you stick together, which means playing with others is going to result in more loot for each player.
This is stated as a general rule of thumb, not just in Normal, or Nightmare, but across the entire game.
Bashiok has also stated this directly in response to a thread on the official forums titled, "SO... IS THERE ANY POINT TO MULTIPLAYER?" His response was as follows:
Official Blizzard Quote:
The difficulty is tuned so that while it ramps up with each additional player you add, your combined power is faster at killing enemies than if you were to play alone.
Playing co-op means more monsters killed in less time, which means you're getting more chances at loot drops for time invested. As the game is largely based on hunting for loot and maximizing efficiency, it's a significant bonus. We don't foresee the need to incentivize co-op in any additional ways for the time being.
They also state this as fact in the Q&A segment as this last Blizzcon.
If you have evidence to make all of this official word incorrect, please site it.
“We act as though comfort and luxury were the chief requirements of life, when all that we need to make us happy is something to be enthusiastic about.” - Albert Einstein
I personally don't see much foundation to your view. Everything we know of now points to faster killing in a group atmosphere, be it a small difference or not.
i really can't see how you can say that considering i proved my point three times over that it will only be faster killing if your grouped with decent people. and considering blizz themselves have said there not "catering to groups for gear race". lol
There is no hands-on proof in anything right now other than the Beta, in which I've found the opposite to be true; being that no matter what level my team mates are, we accomplish slaying faster.
As for Blizzard saying otherwise, I have to ask you to please site where you're getting this information, because the opposite is stated right on Blizzards' new Diablo 3 site homepage in an article detailing cooperative played, and monster scaling among blue posts on the official forums, and at Blizzcon.
This is the most up-to-date word we have on this topic, and considering it's in an article on the very homepage of Blizzards' brand new site, it would be foolish to overlook it as something they plan to change, or overshadow it with your own theories on a topic they have clearly stated how they plan to handle. When you combine the many times they have publicly stated this in Blue posts by Bashiok, Blizzcon 2010, and now home page articles, I don't see how it can be overlooked.
As for this very latest time we've seen this stated, I'm refering to the second parigraph, which states:
Official Blizzard Quote:
Most importantly, although monsters get tougher as additional friends come to help bash the demonic hell spawn lumbering toward you, you’ll kill more monsters faster as long as you stick together, which means playing with others is going to result in more loot for each player.
This is stated as a general rule of thumb, not just in Normal, or Nightmare, but across the entire game.
Bashiok has also stated this directly in response to a thread on the official forums titled, "SO... IS THERE ANY POINT TO MULTIPLAYER?" His response was as follows:
Official Blizzard Quote:
The difficulty is tuned so that while it ramps up with each additional player you add, your combined power is faster at killing enemies than if you were to play alone.
Playing co-op means more monsters killed in less time, which means you're getting more chances at loot drops for time invested. As the game is largely based on hunting for loot and maximizing efficiency, it's a significant bonus. We don't foresee the need to incentivize co-op in any additional ways for the time being.
They also state this as fact in the Q&A segment as this last Blizzcon.
If you have evidence to make all of this official word incorrect, please site it.
Like I said in my last post. Diablo inferno will NOT be easy. Period. That's the point. And most people Will NOT be that good at the game therefor if it takes skill and your with UNskilled people, it's common sense that you will kill slower then with yourself (if YOU are an expert). Obviously a bunch of scrubs/newbs together will kill faster then one noob alone. That was my entire argument which u have yet to prove otherwise. Posts saying how co-op is encouraged doesn't answer questions about difficulty of inferno OR anything about the skill of the players.
Like I said in my last post. Diablo inferno will NOT be easy. Period. That's the point. And most people Will NOT be that good at the game therefor if it takes skill and your with UNskilled people, it's common sense that you will kill slower then with yourself (if YOU are an expert). Obviously a bunch of scrubs/newbs together will kill faster then one noob alone. That was my entire argument which u have yet to prove otherwise. Posts saying how co-op is encouraged doesn't answer questions about difficulty of inferno OR anything about the skill of the players.
No matter what different level of skilled players are in the group (IE: three unskilled with one skilled), as long as everyone is actively engaging mobs while remaining in the group, even the skilled player will be benefiting from three unskilled ones in the sense of killing faster.
Seeing as there are level requirements for each difficulty, you'll never be stuck with a brand new level 5 player in Inferno, since the level requirement is 60. This system is partially in place to make sure it's always beneficial to party up, even with "scrubs/newbs". Considering you'll only be partying with players who are also in Inferno, they obviously at least know how to attack enemies, and thus will make it beneficial to party with them.
I'm not sure exactly what classifies a "scrub/newb" to you. Are you referring to players not as well geared as you? Or players who run around in circles doing absolutely nothing. Anyone other than players running around not helping attack mobs will benefit the speed in which you kill. Thankfully, those players are extremely rare, and I personally have yet to come across even one. If those rare type of players are what you're basing your definition of "scrub/newb" on, than yes, obviously it will never be good to party with them.
“We act as though comfort and luxury were the chief requirements of life, when all that we need to make us happy is something to be enthusiastic about.” - Albert Einstein
Like I said in my last post. Diablo inferno will NOT be easy. Period. That's the point. And most people Will NOT be that good at the game therefor if it takes skill and your with UNskilled people, it's common sense that you will kill slower then with yourself (if YOU are an expert). Obviously a bunch of scrubs/newbs together will kill faster then one noob alone. That was my entire argument which u have yet to prove otherwise. Posts saying how co-op is encouraged doesn't answer questions about difficulty of inferno OR anything about the skill of the players.
No matter what different level of skilled players are in the group (IE: three unskilled with one skilled), as long as everyone is actively engaging mobs while remaining in the group, even the skilled player will be benefiting from three unskilled ones in the sense of killing faster.
Seeing as there are level requirements for each difficulty, you'll never be stuck with a brand new level 5 player in Inferno, since the level requirement is 60. This system is partially in place to make sure it's always beneficial to party up, even with "scrubs/newbs". Considering you'll only be partying with players who are also in Inferno, they obviously at least know how to attack enemies, and thus will make it beneficial to party with them.
I'm not sure exactly what classifies a "scrub/newb" to you. Are you referring to players not as well geared as you? Or players who run around in circles doing absolutely nothing. Anyone other than players running around not helping attack mobs will benefit the speed in which you kill. Thankfully, those players are extremely rare, and I personally have yet to come across even one. If those rare type of players are what you're basing your definition of "scrub/newb" on, than yes, obviously it will never be good to party with them.
scrub/newb would be someone under geared (in diablo it would be people at 60 with ridiculously low level gear , like most gear from norm/nm and not hell) and/or not very good at the game (MY opinion of those words, IDC about anyone else's) (IE die constantly doing stupid things, using useless spells, not contributing to the group a lot)
and you have a good point BUT in reality there is no way to prove me wrong or even prove you right. your theory is valid but my theory is MORE valid. why? because its common sense theorizing. in ANY game, lets not even talk about diablo 3. in any game being with a group of people who don't know what they are doing (if the game difficulty is harder with more people) it is always more beneficial for the veteran player to play solo then in a group of unskilled players. coincidentally diablo 2 is a great example. i was in ALOT of games where 8 ppl were clearing things doing "act 2 playthroughs" and such and me being the veteran with gear i could clear rooms much much faster in a solo game then with that group of 8 because the monsters were much stronger and a lot of the players literally did nothing or really really sucked.
there really is only 2 ways to prove my theory is less valid then yours or completely wrong. #1. blizzard releases a statement literally saying "a group of 4 unskilled players will clear inferno faster then 1 expert". or #2. the game comes out and you time 4 scrubs clearing inferno and 1 expert. and if the scrubs do it faster. until either of those things happen my theory still stands strong
Comparing D2 to D3 is a very far stretch, they are near incomparable in this regard.
I do see your point of view, I just feel you're over exaggerating how bad players will be.
I guess we just have two different views on the matter, upon release we'll just have to test it. At this point we're just debating over your view against the official word of Blizzard, the very people developing the game. Until you get to test this yourself, and report your theory as correct, I feel sticking with the words of the people making the game is a good bet ;).
“We act as though comfort and luxury were the chief requirements of life, when all that we need to make us happy is something to be enthusiastic about.” - Albert Einstein
Comparing D2 to D3 is a very far stretch, they are near incomparable in this regard.
I do see your point of view, I just feel you're over exaggerating how bad players will be.
I guess we just have two different views on the matter, upon release we'll just have to test it. At this point we're just debating over your view against the official word of Blizzard, the very people developing the game. Until you get to test this yourself, and report your theory as correct, I feel sticking with the words of the people making the game is a good bet ;).
well see id 100% agree with you. but like i said blizzard has YET to comment on the very big fact of player skill. thats a HUGE factor in EVERY game on earth. and also i said ANY game and D2 would be THE best game to compare a sequel of the same series too.. its old and there changing a lot of things yes BUT I' commented on the PLAYERS, not the game itself. but lets put that to rest.
id agree with you but your basing your entire theory off of the first 1/3rd of the EASIEST difficulty in a BETA and off of posts encouraging gameplay by blizzard which is EXTREMELY bias, considering they will make more money from people as a whole, more group play = bigger community = stronger ties = people play longer = more money for blizzard. creating a game that connects people online and hyping it for solo play when they make more by people playing more and interacting with each other (Auction houses) wouldn't be very smart on their part would it?
you think any gaming company would say "hey guys you should group up, but warning if you group up with newbs it would be a lot easier to solo!". never. therefor they will never say that even though its 100% true in ANY game that increasing difficulty with the amount of players. again its common sense looking through the happy go lucky group-encouraging posts of blizzard. i see your very prominent in these forums and all so i will test my theory once it comes out, i will complete the entire game and time/record my inferno play time and then literally TRY and find a group of 3 newbs and then time it again. and ill share the results on these forums to let everyone know. because either way id love to know, that way if I'm wrong id stop playing the game by myself. lol
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How will the game's difficulty increase with more players in the game? The team has said that it will increase considerably, to the point that playing solo in a group game will be a very bad idea. But what mechanism will create this? More monster hit points? More monster damage? Improved AI?
That's not been revealed, but @Diablo did confirm, in November 2010, that difficulty was probably going to be based on the number of players in the game, not their Clvl. [4]"
-quote from http://diablowiki.net/Difficulty
IF the monsters did NOT get stronger then it would be catering toward "group play" which blizzard has stated they are NOT catering one way or the other, encouraging group play but not making it so groups is 100% the best/fastest way to get gear like it is required in World of Warcraft. if you want to play in a group, play in a group, or solo, play solo. if say you are pretty well geared and skilled or not, and you go into a group of 3 newbs/scrubs then it WILL be slower or if even half your group is good and half is bad - you'd be a lot better off soloing. but OBVIOUSLY if you are in a group of 3 veterans who are geared it will be easier to get gear then solo, but what are the chances you join a random group of 3 other really well geared players? slim even later after games release. so soloing is the "safest" (at least at the start) to get the best gear if you are good VS pug's
DISCLAIMER: if anyone has any new update on this information then post it please. i want this to be an informative thread not arguing over anything
I've heard that the beta doesn't, but then again, it is the beta. I think, when we actually get the game at release time we will be quite amazed at how much they've actually changed things in comparison to how they are currently in the beta.
Yes, creatures scale = # of players (we've known this for a very long time), but the scale isn't high enough to make playing a group as difficult as playing alone. In other words, creatures do not have 4x HP with four players in game, it seems to be closer to 2.5x or so.
Monsters do scale with player numbers in the Beta. This is even identified by a text marker on the bottom left of the screen the same as Diablo 2 displaying "-Player Name- Has joined the game, the minions of Hell grow stronger", or something along that line.
I personally do not recall ever hearing that. For a long time it has been that loot drops are the exact same when playing solo, or in a full game. The only benifit to playing with others is even with the monsters scaled up, you're still going to be mowing down mobs faster than you would be with less players, thus killing more monsters per minute, end result being more chances to drop loot.
they never changed their minds, its always been "monsters will scale with more people, but more people means its easier to kill groups of monsters faster and therefor you will get loot quicker, loot does not drop more frequently with more people you can just kill monsters faster even though they are stronger then if you are by yourself". and as i stated it will be easier to solo to get more loot VS 3 random ppl that aren't that great. blizzard says this in the sense you have 4 equally decent players in a group, if you have 1-3 baddies in the group it will make the killing a lot slower therefor LESS loot in groups VS solo
you have to remember that the beta monsters do not seem to scale at all with more people, ALSO its merely 1/3rd of the first act of NORMAL mode which is SUPPOSED to be VERY easy and very simple. monsters scaling in hell and inferno will make it 10x harder then scaling in normal. maybe in inferno 500 dmg turned into 2500 dmg from a monster could possibly one shot one of the group and then oh no you have 3 ppl, and then if multiple people die at once... ect.. so you simply cannot compare scaling in normal to the final supposedly "super hard" last difficulty which is what I'm referring to.
It's only when the group splits up, or isn't all focusing on the same group of mobiles that the rate in which you kill monsters drops low enough to where soloing could be a better option.
EDIT: Good post indeed.
like i said in my last reply to your post, you cannot compare the beta to the final game and especially can't compare normal (IE super easy mode) to inferno (super hard mode). scaling will be exponentially greater in inferno then normal.
That being said, yes Normal won't reflect the same scaling as the other three difficulties will have. Just because normal scales to 3.75% HP monster heath at four players doesn't mean that will hold true in other difficulties. There are too many numerical differences that will likely take place to make such confident assumptions right now.
Looking at this concept of creature scaling from a developer point of view, one would think they would rather entice people to play with others rather than play alone. Especially considering how hard they push the notion of Diablo being a cooperative game. So in that light, it would make sense for them to adjust scaling so it would be beneficial to play with others even if they are not as well geared, or skilled as you.
It wouldn't make much sense to scale creatues so it would only be beneficial if you are partied with equally progressed players now would it?
If your point is if you get stuck with very bad players you're better off playing alone, than yes I can agree with that. But, the chances of you getting stuck play 3 players who are so bad it would be better off to just play alone as it stands now is extremely rare.
It is only logical to support the notion of a cooperative game with the added benefits of playing with others to be universal, and if anything more so in later difficulties.
the beta shouldn't even be a judging tool considering its a "test" and MANY things will change entirely and yes again the higher difficulties. and blizzard has said they are not making it so its a lot better to play in groups then solo. the game is "potentially just as easily solo able as with a group". also any thread on this entire forum is "speculation" considering the game isn't done. jay wilson commented on this because he was asked if "playing in groups would be the quickest way to the best gear?" and he replied saying there "strongly encouraging group play" but they are not making it so the people who like to solo are going to be 'hindered' or 'behind' on the gear race then others who play in groups. therefor i believe my original theory is still correct.
on a side note. considering MOST ppl who are playing ANY game aren't that great, because if everyone was good then no one would be good. if you get what i mean. "good" wouldn't be "good". so the people who are "good" are by definition the "few" therefor no it won't be rare at all to end up in an entire group of baddies, especially in the initial months of release. the only way the majority of the community would be "good" is if diablo ends up being INCREDIBLY easy overall. which would be an epic let down and failure
example: even tho everyone hates the comparison (wow). in WoW i que'd for literally thousands of "heroic" dungeons for groups over the years, and in that time i RARELY encountered an entire group of geared people, even years after wotlk was out i rarely got dungeons with veterans. <5% of the time. and id say AT LEAST 50%+ of the time i ended up with an ENTIRE group of newbs/scrubs. and then 15% of the time i had mostly geared people. so this game will be no different, possibly a lot worse considering you don't have to have a certain "gear level" like wow does to join a random game with people.
I personally don't see much foundation to your view. Everything we know of now points to faster killing in a group atmosphere, be it a small difference or not.
i really can't see how you can say that considering i proved my point three times over that it will only be faster killing if your grouped with decent people. and considering blizz themselves have said there not "catering to groups for gear race". lol
This. Part of the fun of Blizzard is knowing that everything they say six months out will not happen
Now that loot is not shared at all, shrine buffs are shared within a certain range, and the only form of griefing I can forsee would be to set up some kind of monster killing trap with a summoning banner which can be completely avoidable, why wouldn't you pug it up for faster, safer loots?
One thing I have not tested is exp change based on number of players. The + experience items don't seem to get x4 when there are four people in game though. (lowbie mobs still only give 2 or 3 exp + your item total) Will look into this.
As for Blizzard saying otherwise, I have to ask you to please site where you're getting this information, because the opposite is stated right on Blizzards' new Diablo 3 site homepage in an article detailing cooperative played, and monster scaling among blue posts on the official forums, and at Blizzcon.
This is the most up-to-date word we have on this topic, and considering it's in an article on the very homepage of Blizzards' brand new site, it would be foolish to overlook it as something they plan to change, or overshadow it with your own theories on a topic they have clearly stated how they plan to handle. When you combine the many times they have publicly stated this in Blue posts by Bashiok, Blizzcon 2010, and now home page articles, I don't see how it can be overlooked.
As for this very latest time we've seen this stated, I'm refering to the second parigraph, which states:
Official Blizzard Quote:
Most importantly, although monsters get tougher as additional friends come to help bash the demonic hell spawn lumbering toward you, you’ll kill more monsters faster as long as you stick together, which means playing with others is going to result in more loot for each player.
Bashiok has also stated this directly in response to a thread on the official forums titled, "SO... IS THERE ANY POINT TO MULTIPLAYER?" His response was as follows:
Official Blizzard Quote:
The difficulty is tuned so that while it ramps up with each additional player you add, your combined power is faster at killing enemies than if you were to play alone.
Playing co-op means more monsters killed in less time, which means you're getting more chances at loot drops for time invested. As the game is largely based on hunting for loot and maximizing efficiency, it's a significant bonus. We don't foresee the need to incentivize co-op in any additional ways for the time being.
If you have evidence to make all of this official word incorrect, please site it.
Like I said in my last post. Diablo inferno will NOT be easy. Period. That's the point. And most people Will NOT be that good at the game therefor if it takes skill and your with UNskilled people, it's common sense that you will kill slower then with yourself (if YOU are an expert). Obviously a bunch of scrubs/newbs together will kill faster then one noob alone. That was my entire argument which u have yet to prove otherwise. Posts saying how co-op is encouraged doesn't answer questions about difficulty of inferno OR anything about the skill of the players.
Seeing as there are level requirements for each difficulty, you'll never be stuck with a brand new level 5 player in Inferno, since the level requirement is 60. This system is partially in place to make sure it's always beneficial to party up, even with "scrubs/newbs". Considering you'll only be partying with players who are also in Inferno, they obviously at least know how to attack enemies, and thus will make it beneficial to party with them.
I'm not sure exactly what classifies a "scrub/newb" to you. Are you referring to players not as well geared as you? Or players who run around in circles doing absolutely nothing. Anyone other than players running around not helping attack mobs will benefit the speed in which you kill. Thankfully, those players are extremely rare, and I personally have yet to come across even one. If those rare type of players are what you're basing your definition of "scrub/newb" on, than yes, obviously it will never be good to party with them.
scrub/newb would be someone under geared (in diablo it would be people at 60 with ridiculously low level gear , like most gear from norm/nm and not hell) and/or not very good at the game (MY opinion of those words, IDC about anyone else's) (IE die constantly doing stupid things, using useless spells, not contributing to the group a lot)
and you have a good point BUT in reality there is no way to prove me wrong or even prove you right. your theory is valid but my theory is MORE valid. why? because its common sense theorizing. in ANY game, lets not even talk about diablo 3. in any game being with a group of people who don't know what they are doing (if the game difficulty is harder with more people) it is always more beneficial for the veteran player to play solo then in a group of unskilled players. coincidentally diablo 2 is a great example. i was in ALOT of games where 8 ppl were clearing things doing "act 2 playthroughs" and such and me being the veteran with gear i could clear rooms much much faster in a solo game then with that group of 8 because the monsters were much stronger and a lot of the players literally did nothing or really really sucked.
there really is only 2 ways to prove my theory is less valid then yours or completely wrong. #1. blizzard releases a statement literally saying "a group of 4 unskilled players will clear inferno faster then 1 expert". or #2. the game comes out and you time 4 scrubs clearing inferno and 1 expert. and if the scrubs do it faster. until either of those things happen my theory still stands strong
I do see your point of view, I just feel you're over exaggerating how bad players will be.
I guess we just have two different views on the matter, upon release we'll just have to test it. At this point we're just debating over your view against the official word of Blizzard, the very people developing the game. Until you get to test this yourself, and report your theory as correct, I feel sticking with the words of the people making the game is a good bet ;).
well see id 100% agree with you. but like i said blizzard has YET to comment on the very big fact of player skill. thats a HUGE factor in EVERY game on earth. and also i said ANY game and D2 would be THE best game to compare a sequel of the same series too.. its old and there changing a lot of things yes BUT I' commented on the PLAYERS, not the game itself. but lets put that to rest.
id agree with you but your basing your entire theory off of the first 1/3rd of the EASIEST difficulty in a BETA and off of posts encouraging gameplay by blizzard which is EXTREMELY bias, considering they will make more money from people as a whole, more group play = bigger community = stronger ties = people play longer = more money for blizzard. creating a game that connects people online and hyping it for solo play when they make more by people playing more and interacting with each other (Auction houses) wouldn't be very smart on their part would it?
you think any gaming company would say "hey guys you should group up, but warning if you group up with newbs it would be a lot easier to solo!". never. therefor they will never say that even though its 100% true in ANY game that increasing difficulty with the amount of players. again its common sense looking through the happy go lucky group-encouraging posts of blizzard. i see your very prominent in these forums and all so i will test my theory once it comes out, i will complete the entire game and time/record my inferno play time and then literally TRY and find a group of 3 newbs and then time it again. and ill share the results on these forums to let everyone know. because either way id love to know, that way if I'm wrong id stop playing the game by myself. lol