I'm going to have a group of 4 players who play on a regular basis, exclusively with each other. The idea is to see how strong of a group we can have if our builds are designed around getting the most out of skills that benefit group play. Obviously plans will change a great deal once we are able to actually test out the post-level 13 skills and see how difficult things get, but I'd still like to go into it with a rough plan (plus, it is fun to scheme).
First question: the composition. I think that a Barbarian and a Monk definitely need to be in there. The barb for acting as a quasi-tank, and the monk as a quasi-healer. The other two spots could be filled in by any 2 of the DH/Wiz/WD, although my suspicion is that Wizard/WD have slightly more to offer than the DH. I'm going to look at possible builds for each class to help me decide, and to hopefully get some feedback on things to try.
Threatening Shout runed to Taunt is the most important skill. If we can concentrate damage on the best person to tank it, then it means the ranged classes can emphasize more on damage skills/stats and less on defense.
The rage gen skill doesn't matter much. Cleave will probably be most often useful, occasionally switching to bash runed for stun, or frenzy for bosses. The only CC offered by the secondary is either the (very) conditional stun rune from hammmer of the ancients, or seismic's knockback, but I don't imagine you'll want to knockback very often.
Ignore pain - seems extremely useful for dealing with bosses and elites.
Revenge - For the target of all the attacks, a very regular source of healing and high damage.
WotB - no defense or CC outside of dodge %, but it is probably a fun spell to have. Swap for War Cry if needed. Or possibly Ancient Spear to gather archers and the like to increase AOE damage.
The monk is beyond incredible in a group setting.
Crippling Wave - coming with a conviction effect is awesome
Wave of Light - no idea which spender is best. The kick gives KB (which you usually don't want, but might against some mobs), rush gives a slow (but slows are a dime a dozen), WoL is probably highest for damage.
Breath of Heaven - The only direct heal spell in the game.
Exploding Palm - yet another conviction effect!
Cyclone Strike - You want mobs bunched up near you and the barb for AOE goodness, this should be excellent for that goal
Mantra of Conviction - The more conviction effects the better, and this is the best one in the game.
Now the decision of which class gets left out raises its head. What does the WD offer us? Hex and Mass Confusion both offer us CC and conviction, which is extremely powerful. Big Bad Voodoo is a big damage boost. And the rest is good AOE damage.
This is a very AOE damage heavy build. Not taking any of the movement or self-defense skills with hopes that the barb and monk can gather everything near them. Certainly does not offer as many group damage increasing skills as other classes, but Marked for Death has a high uptime and isn't conditional like many of the other conviction effects are. I'd need to play with spike trap to figure out if it is good, and what rune to go with. A grenade/cluster shot heavy build might also work.
Again, an AOE build that would be tweaked for single target bosses. Slow Time's Time Warp gives both defense vs. ranged and also a big damage boost. I like having Frozen as CC, and having it in with Blizzard seems better than using Frost Nova and requiring the Wizard to be near the action. I feel like in a group setting with a tank, elemental damage is more likely to be a concern than physical, hence the energy armor rune. Conflaguration is a conviction-type ability, but I don't select it because it doesn't seem like any of the fire abilities are any good.
In summary: after looking at these builds, I think the WD is definitely a step ahead of the Wizard and DH with its CCs and multiple damage increasing cooldowns. Probably either DH or Wiz would work fine as the 4th spot, but I might give the edge to the Wizard if just because it offers both Arcane and Cold damage types into the mix, and the more diversity of damage types the group presents, the less likely there will be problems with monsters of high resistances. And plus I could see situations where Slow Time is incredibly useful.
Seems really cool. I like the idea of the group choosing their skillset to best affect the group as a whole instead of just how the one person can do the most damage. Now if only I can get my group to think like this... It may take a harsh death in a higher difficulty to make them see my way.
As someone who is dead set on playing Barbarian, I've really been giving a lot of thought to being a tank role in groups of 4, especially with that runed taunt on Threatening Shout. Though I may end up being in a group of 2 with a Wizard most, so I'd probably be a damage role most of the time. I wonder if it'll end up being essential to sword and board in higher difficulties. I would like the freedom to tank or do damage, since I like both. I'd hate to be forced to tank all the time though, if the monster damage is that much of a problem.
Anyway, speaking for the Barbarian, using your skills I'd probably do something like this, focusing on self healing, defensives, and group aid. Might swap Tough as Nails for Nerves of Steel depending on numbers. Also might use Relentless depending on how long you can actually last sub-20%, and how hard monsters hit. I don't wanna use it if I go from 50% to 10%, for example. You don't get much use out of it.
Also, obviously Bash with Clobber for single-target, and stunnable bosses, otherwise Cleave with Gathering Storm, otherwise maybe Frenzy with Vanguard. It doesn't really matter beyond the first two choices.
I could tinker with it a little and swap some abilities for some others, but Blizzard's calculator doesn't like me putting things where I want them, so I have to move skills in an annoying way to swap them.
Don't forget that DH will compete directly with the monk for Dex gear whereas the Wizard will be after Int gear. (I forgot WD and Wiz compete for Int, so there's overlap no matter what.)
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...and if you disagree with me, you're probably <insert random ad hominem attack here>.
Seems really cool. I like the idea of the group choosing their skillset to best affect the group as a whole instead of just how the one person can do the most damage. Now if only I can get my group to think like this... It may take a harsh death in a higher difficulty to make them see my way.
As someone who is dead set on playing Barbarian, I've really been giving a lot of thought to being a tank role in groups of 4, especially with that runed taunt on Threatening Shout. Though I may end up being in a group of 2 with a Wizard most, so I'd probably be a damage role most of the time. I wonder if it'll end up being essential to sword and board in higher difficulties. I would like the freedom to tank or do damage, since I like both. I'd hate to be forced to tank all the time though, if the monster damage is that much of a problem.
Anyway, speaking for the Barbarian, using your skills I'd probably do something like this, focusing on self healing, defensives, and group aid. Might swap Tough as Nails for Nerves of Steel depending on numbers. Also might use Relentless depending on how long you can actually last sub-20%, and how hard monsters hit. I don't wanna use it if I go from 50% to 10%, for example. You don't get much use out of it.
Also, obviously Bash with Clobber for single-target, and stunnable bosses, otherwise Cleave with Gathering Storm, otherwise maybe Frenzy with Vanguard. It doesn't really matter beyond the first two choices.
I could tinker with it a little and swap some abilities for some others, but Blizzard's calculator doesn't like me putting things where I want them, so I have to move skills in an annoying way to swap them.
Those are good suggestions, the 60% dodge on WotB is much better than increasing its duration some. Gathering Storm on Cleave - Slows are extremely important, especially if you have a DH with the passive that increases damage against slowed creatures...but there are so many skills that come with slows, it might not be needed.
Don't forget that DH will compete directly with the monk for Dex gear whereas the Wizard will be after Int gear.
There isn't really any gear competeing.
My Ideal comp would be Monk, Barb, Wiz, and WD, Sorry DH.
Well, there could be gear "competition" in theory, if you share your drops that are better for other classes. But either way there is going to be some doubling up on primary stats (whether it is WD/Wiz or DH/Monk), and it certainly isn't a big enough deal to be a factor in decision making.
Don't forget that DH will compete directly with the monk for Dex gear whereas the Wizard will be after Int gear.
There isn't really any gear competeing.
My Ideal comp would be Monk, Barb, Wiz, and WD, Sorry DH.
Well, there could be gear "competition" in theory, if you share your drops that are better for other classes. But either way there is going to be some doubling up on primary stats (whether it is WD/Wiz or DH/Monk), and it certainly isn't a big enough deal to be a factor in decision making.
For some reason, my mind completely blanked out that Wiz / WD compete for Int. Meh. You're right, it's not a factor then.
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...and if you disagree with me, you're probably <insert random ad hominem attack here>.
Seems really cool. I like the idea of
...
way to swap them.
Gathering Storm on Cleave - Slows are extremely important, especially if you have a DH with the passive that increases damage against slowed creatures...but there are so many skills that come with slows, it might not be needed.
True about the slows, but there isn't anything else for utility on Cleave. Only +damage (or indirect +damage through +Fury for Whirlwind). The way I think of tanking is that survivability and group utility are more important than damage. That mindset does carry over from WoW though, so maybe DIII will change my way of thinking.
All this is pure speculation of course, having not seen endgame.
The diablo serie has never been about tank+healing.
It's more about CC, Buffs/Debuffs and avoiding damage. Not saying Barb + Monk is not good, just that it is very speculative to think it will be mandatory.
The best comp I have absolutely no idea. Maybe Monk is required for party buffs and some healing. I feel Wizards will be pretty good for their numerous CCs. But I can't say more than that.
Well I'll give it a shot:`My best party is 1Monk 2Wiz 1WD !
The diablo serie has never been about tank+healing.
It's more about CC, Buffs/Debuffs and avoiding damage. Not saying Barb + Monk is not good, just that it is very speculative to think it will be mandatory.
The best comp I have absolutely no idea. Maybe Monk is required for party buffs and some healing. I feel Wizards will be pretty good for their numerous CCs. But I can't say more than that.
Well I'll give it a shot:`My best party is 1Monk 2Wiz 1WD !
I never said it was mandatory. What I'm saying is that if you know that you can funnel the damage towards the Barb (and you can with his mass taunt), and take advantage of his defensive talents, then the Wiz/WD classes can run builds that focus less on defensive skills, and instead utility skills that both CC and increase the party's damage by a ton. It isn't necessary to asisgn your group roles, but it sure makes things more efficient in hell/inferno.
Don't forget that DH will compete directly with the monk for Dex gear whereas the Wizard will be after Int gear. (I forgot WD and Wiz compete for Int, so there's overlap no matter what.)
There no item competition as all drops are specific to each player.
There no item competition as all drops are specific to each player.
Which isn't to say you can't give an upgrade to your friend if he'll be better for it. Helping your party improve helps you.
Even if, say, an Intelligence item drops that's an upgrade for both your Witch Doctor and Wizard, I'd want to give it to whoever it would improve the most.
Just remember with the proposed Nephalem Valor buff you group will need to be flexible enough to handle many situations without skill swapping. Having a tanky character is a plus I suppose but this is diablo, you can kite and avoid damage. If 2 ranged dps can kite and avoid damage while a tanky character can absorb damage at the expense of dealing damage, maybe the 2 ranged dps are better off alone?
I do believe working as a group will benefit the groups players greatly, but I also feel that the best builds in the game will have flexiblity to handle multiple situations without wiping the neph valor buff to respec. I believe specialization will be an adversary in D3, flexiblity will be your greatest ally. I could be wrong and if I am, I will be willing to admit it.
I do appreciate the time and effort you put into your theorycrafting though. Its impressive. The one thing I wonder is how will a level 60 DH be? I am beginning to think they are being underestimated. (hint, if their skills look underwhelming, than maybe the end game gear evens the score for them?)
Just remember with the proposed Nephalem Valor buff you group will need to be flexible enough to handle many situations without skill swapping.
See, that exact point is why I wish we had some more details on the Nephalem Valor system. Say that it stacks, which I think they said it did, and you swap an ability. Do you lose all stacks, or just one stack per ability swapped? Do runes count? The amount per stack factors into it too. I might be more willing to swap from Cleave to Bash if I'd only lose one stack of the buff, and only 5% MF in doing so.
Please forgive me, veteran gamer but complete Diablo noob here and i'm amazed at how much theorycrafting you guys are doing.
How can you guys think such specific builds when you haven't experienced how hard/fast/packed etc mobs are yet?
Is it to kill time? for the sake of argument? or do you really believe there is a chance you'll actually stick with those builds when being lvl 60 and farming inferno?
Just remember with the proposed Nephalem Valor buff you group will need to be flexible enough to handle many situations without skill swapping.
See, that exact point is why I wish we had some more details on the Nephalem Valor system. Say that it stacks, which I think they said it did, and you swap an ability. Do you lose all stacks, or just one stack per ability swapped? Do runes count? The amount per stack factors into it too. I might be more willing to swap from Cleave to Bash if I'd only lose one stack of the buff, and only 5% MF in doing so.
I think the reason we don't have more info is because they are still working on it. They probably got a Neph Valor Buff (can we just call it NVB?) that is set for release and could be tweaked after with a patch. I'm happy with the overall NVB system so I think I am going to be ok with how it turns out... but.. I don't want to hijack this guys thread. I like to read a good theorycraft. We are missing lots of info though so we all are just shooting into the night sky and hoping we get a goose.
Please forgive me, veteran gamer but complete Diablo noob here and i'm amazed at how much theorycrafting you guys are doing.
How can you guys think such specific builds when you haven't experienced how hard/fast/packed etc mobs are yet?
Is it to kill time? for the sake of argument? or do you really believe there is a chance you'll actually stick with those builds when being lvl 60 and farming inferno?
Genuine question fwiw, not mocking or anything!
How can we do all this without experiencing the actual endgame? For the hell of it, really. These could end up being the worst possible builds in actual gameplay, as far as we know. No real theorycrafting can happen without the final product. All we can do is postulate on what could be good against monsters that hit hard and have lots of health.
Diablo II experience can play a little into it, since Hell in DII could be compared to Inferno in DIII. You can't compare too much though, since many mechanics are a lot different.
It's fun, too, and it familiarizes us with ability/rune combinations. That way when you're playing the final product, you can say "Ok, Bash with Clobber would be really good here," instead of flipping through your skill UI trying to hold all the unfamiliar combinations in your head as you look for the best tool for the job.
Don't forget that DH will compete directly with the monk for Dex gear whereas the Wizard will be after Int gear. (I forgot WD and Wiz compete for Int, so there's overlap no matter what.)
There no item competition as all drops are specific to each player.
True that. But if they have a group of friends playing together all the time surely they would share some loot between each other.
This. The OP is talking about a dedicated group where everyone builds to maximize group power. It seems a reasonable assumption that they'd distribute loot where it makes sense regardless of for whom it dropped.
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...and if you disagree with me, you're probably <insert random ad hominem attack here>.
Just remember with the proposed Nephalem Valor buff you group will need to be flexible enough to handle many situations without skill swapping. Having a tanky character is a plus I suppose but this is diablo, you can kite and avoid damage. If 2 ranged dps can kite and avoid damage while a tanky character can absorb damage at the expense of dealing damage, maybe the 2 ranged dps are better off alone?
I do believe working as a group will benefit the groups players greatly, but I also feel that the best builds in the game will have flexiblity to handle multiple situations without wiping the neph valor buff to respec. I believe specialization will be an adversary in D3, flexiblity will be your greatest ally. I could be wrong and if I am, I will be willing to admit it.
I don't think that "tanking" reduces the damage the Barb would do by much. Constant revenge procs would be a huge amount of damage, along with all the cleaving, whirlwinding, etc. Some of the runes/passives might not be set up for optimal DPS, but considering the constant conviction mantra and many other damage boosting effects from the group, the Barb in this group is going to be doing way, way more DPS than any Barb can solo.
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First question: the composition. I think that a Barbarian and a Monk definitely need to be in there. The barb for acting as a quasi-tank, and the monk as a quasi-healer. The other two spots could be filled in by any 2 of the DH/Wiz/WD, although my suspicion is that Wizard/WD have slightly more to offer than the DH. I'm going to look at possible builds for each class to help me decide, and to hopefully get some feedback on things to try.
First, the barb.
http://us.battle.net/d3/en/calculator/barbarian#bhRVgP!Xeb!YbYcYc
Threatening Shout runed to Taunt is the most important skill. If we can concentrate damage on the best person to tank it, then it means the ranged classes can emphasize more on damage skills/stats and less on defense.
The rage gen skill doesn't matter much. Cleave will probably be most often useful, occasionally switching to bash runed for stun, or frenzy for bosses. The only CC offered by the secondary is either the (very) conditional stun rune from hammmer of the ancients, or seismic's knockback, but I don't imagine you'll want to knockback very often.
Ignore pain - seems extremely useful for dealing with bosses and elites.
Revenge - For the target of all the attacks, a very regular source of healing and high damage.
WotB - no defense or CC outside of dodge %, but it is probably a fun spell to have. Swap for War Cry if needed. Or possibly Ancient Spear to gather archers and the like to increase AOE damage.
Monk:
http://us.battle.net/d3/en/calculator/monk#WeXVfk!fZX!ccZaZa
The monk is beyond incredible in a group setting.
Crippling Wave - coming with a conviction effect is awesome
Wave of Light - no idea which spender is best. The kick gives KB (which you usually don't want, but might against some mobs), rush gives a slow (but slows are a dime a dozen), WoL is probably highest for damage.
Breath of Heaven - The only direct heal spell in the game.
Exploding Palm - yet another conviction effect!
Cyclone Strike - You want mobs bunched up near you and the barb for AOE goodness, this should be excellent for that goal
Mantra of Conviction - The more conviction effects the better, and this is the best one in the game.
WD
http://us.battle.net/d3/en/calculator/witch-doctor#hSRjiQ!ceb!bYZYcb
Now the decision of which class gets left out raises its head. What does the WD offer us? Hex and Mass Confusion both offer us CC and conviction, which is extremely powerful. Big Bad Voodoo is a big damage boost. And the rest is good AOE damage.
DH
http://us.battle.net...kjSl!ceX!cccZZc
This is a very AOE damage heavy build. Not taking any of the movement or self-defense skills with hopes that the barb and monk can gather everything near them. Certainly does not offer as many group damage increasing skills as other classes, but Marked for Death has a high uptime and isn't conditional like many of the other conviction effects are. I'd need to play with spike trap to figure out if it is good, and what rune to go with. A grenade/cluster shot heavy build might also work.
Wizard
http://us.battle.net...glOm!YXU!aaZZcc
Again, an AOE build that would be tweaked for single target bosses. Slow Time's Time Warp gives both defense vs. ranged and also a big damage boost. I like having Frozen as CC, and having it in with Blizzard seems better than using Frost Nova and requiring the Wizard to be near the action. I feel like in a group setting with a tank, elemental damage is more likely to be a concern than physical, hence the energy armor rune. Conflaguration is a conviction-type ability, but I don't select it because it doesn't seem like any of the fire abilities are any good.
In summary: after looking at these builds, I think the WD is definitely a step ahead of the Wizard and DH with its CCs and multiple damage increasing cooldowns. Probably either DH or Wiz would work fine as the 4th spot, but I might give the edge to the Wizard if just because it offers both Arcane and Cold damage types into the mix, and the more diversity of damage types the group presents, the less likely there will be problems with monsters of high resistances. And plus I could see situations where Slow Time is incredibly useful.
Any thoughts?
As someone who is dead set on playing Barbarian, I've really been giving a lot of thought to being a tank role in groups of 4, especially with that runed taunt on Threatening Shout. Though I may end up being in a group of 2 with a Wizard most, so I'd probably be a damage role most of the time. I wonder if it'll end up being essential to sword and board in higher difficulties. I would like the freedom to tank or do damage, since I like both. I'd hate to be forced to tank all the time though, if the monster damage is that much of a problem.
Anyway, speaking for the Barbarian, using your skills I'd probably do something like this, focusing on self healing, defensives, and group aid. Might swap Tough as Nails for Nerves of Steel depending on numbers. Also might use Relentless depending on how long you can actually last sub-20%, and how hard monsters hit. I don't wanna use it if I go from 50% to 10%, for example. You don't get much use out of it.
Also, obviously Bash with Clobber for single-target, and stunnable bosses, otherwise Cleave with Gathering Storm, otherwise maybe Frenzy with Vanguard. It doesn't really matter beyond the first two choices.
I could tinker with it a little and swap some abilities for some others, but Blizzard's calculator doesn't like me putting things where I want them, so I have to move skills in an annoying way to swap them.
Don't forget that DH will compete directly with the monk for Dex gear whereas the Wizard will be after Int gear.(I forgot WD and Wiz compete for Int, so there's overlap no matter what.)There isn't really any gear competeing.
My Ideal comp would be Monk, Barb, Wiz, and WD, Sorry DH.
https://www.deviantart.com/aerisot
Those are good suggestions, the 60% dodge on WotB is much better than increasing its duration some. Gathering Storm on Cleave - Slows are extremely important, especially if you have a DH with the passive that increases damage against slowed creatures...but there are so many skills that come with slows, it might not be needed.
Well, there could be gear "competition" in theory, if you share your drops that are better for other classes. But either way there is going to be some doubling up on primary stats (whether it is WD/Wiz or DH/Monk), and it certainly isn't a big enough deal to be a factor in decision making.
For some reason, my mind completely blanked out that Wiz / WD compete for Int. Meh. You're right, it's not a factor then.
All this is pure speculation of course, having not seen endgame.
It's more about CC, Buffs/Debuffs and avoiding damage. Not saying Barb + Monk is not good, just that it is very speculative to think it will be mandatory.
The best comp I have absolutely no idea. Maybe Monk is required for party buffs and some healing. I feel Wizards will be pretty good for their numerous CCs. But I can't say more than that.
Well I'll give it a shot:`My best party is 1Monk 2Wiz 1WD !
I never said it was mandatory. What I'm saying is that if you know that you can funnel the damage towards the Barb (and you can with his mass taunt), and take advantage of his defensive talents, then the Wiz/WD classes can run builds that focus less on defensive skills, and instead utility skills that both CC and increase the party's damage by a ton. It isn't necessary to asisgn your group roles, but it sure makes things more efficient in hell/inferno.
There no item competition as all drops are specific to each player.
Even if, say, an Intelligence item drops that's an upgrade for both your Witch Doctor and Wizard, I'd want to give it to whoever it would improve the most.
I do believe working as a group will benefit the groups players greatly, but I also feel that the best builds in the game will have flexiblity to handle multiple situations without wiping the neph valor buff to respec. I believe specialization will be an adversary in D3, flexiblity will be your greatest ally. I could be wrong and if I am, I will be willing to admit it.
I do appreciate the time and effort you put into your theorycrafting though. Its impressive. The one thing I wonder is how will a level 60 DH be? I am beginning to think they are being underestimated. (hint, if their skills look underwhelming, than maybe the end game gear evens the score for them?)
How can you guys think such specific builds when you haven't experienced how hard/fast/packed etc mobs are yet?
Is it to kill time? for the sake of argument? or do you really believe there is a chance you'll actually stick with those builds when being lvl 60 and farming inferno?
Genuine question fwiw, not mocking or anything!
I think the reason we don't have more info is because they are still working on it. They probably got a Neph Valor Buff (can we just call it NVB?) that is set for release and could be tweaked after with a patch. I'm happy with the overall NVB system so I think I am going to be ok with how it turns out... but.. I don't want to hijack this guys thread. I like to read a good theorycraft. We are missing lots of info though so we all are just shooting into the night sky and hoping we get a goose.
Diablo II experience can play a little into it, since Hell in DII could be compared to Inferno in DIII. You can't compare too much though, since many mechanics are a lot different.
It's fun, too, and it familiarizes us with ability/rune combinations. That way when you're playing the final product, you can say "Ok, Bash with Clobber would be really good here," instead of flipping through your skill UI trying to hold all the unfamiliar combinations in your head as you look for the best tool for the job.
This. The OP is talking about a dedicated group where everyone builds to maximize group power. It seems a reasonable assumption that they'd distribute loot where it makes sense regardless of for whom it dropped.
I don't think that "tanking" reduces the damage the Barb would do by much. Constant revenge procs would be a huge amount of damage, along with all the cleaving, whirlwinding, etc. Some of the runes/passives might not be set up for optimal DPS, but considering the constant conviction mantra and many other damage boosting effects from the group, the Barb in this group is going to be doing way, way more DPS than any Barb can solo.