I will admit a bias up front against the implementation of the AHs. However, I would like to avoid that as much as possible. Given the topic, it's somewhat unavoidable but please stay as close to the topic as you can.
1) Should the game attempt to reduce the effectiveness of just trying to get ahead/profit/whatever when you do not enter the game world to kill mobs?
2) If a system can be devised to do that without hurting legitimate farmers, what would it look like and would you support it?
So a rough idea would be something like:
a) Reduce the auction limit to something like 5.
Increase the limit by a designated rate for x number of elite kills
c) Make a purchased item not re-postable for a time limit to prevent quick flipping. This could also have a reset value or timer reduction based on elite kills
Example:
For every 10 or 20 or whatever maths out to be fair elite pack kills, you gain one more auction slot in the AH. This "stack" has to be refreshed weekly or maybe even better, in a rolling cycle with elite kills from 7 days ago dropping off stacks.
A purchsed item must be held for 7 days before it can be reposted. I'm not sure that I like the idea of allowing anyone even temporary quick flips so I personally don't like using the "stacks" that give you more auction slots to reduce that but ideas/modifications like that are fair discussion.
No, buying and selling for profit on an AH is a fun part of any game with an AH.
The answer to "why" is exactly this statement. He enjoys it and that's cool. I just have the complete opposite opinion. I find it completely unrewarding and not fun. However, due to the implementation of the AHs, anyone who does this is better at killing mobs which is the part (only part) of the game that I enjoy.
Basically, what I am describing is playing a different game than D3. They are expanding a feature of the game into almost a completely different game. I don't mind that one bit except to the point that it advances them in MY part of the game faster than I can playing in MY part of the game.
What I mean by the implementation being the issue, is consider other ways this has been done. I don't want WoW in my D3 but it serves as an econ example. Anyone CAN accumulate massive wealth there. However, that doesn't make them better at raiding than me if I spend my time raiding. That's a system that I think is important. I would prefer to see that relationship in this game but I am not saying it should be using WoW itemization/economy/etc.
This game is about unbound gear and you would have to change that to use WoW models so I think that's a bad idea. I think they borrowed from WoW itemization too much already, so I would love to see that backed off.
But the WoW model can't be the only way to restore that relationship at least to some degree.
Obviously, the posters so far disagree and that's cool. Just trying to see what the general opinions are.
What I mean by the implementation being the issue, is consider other ways this has been done. I don't want WoW in my D3 but it serves as an econ example. Anyone CAN accumulate massive wealth there. However, that doesn't make them better at raiding than me if I spend my time raiding. That's a system that I think is important. I would prefer to see that relationship in this game but I am not saying it should be using WoW itemization/economy/etc.
Removal of RMAH and add a deposit for listing items. Those two factors will drastically change the way you would prefer this system to your liking.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Playing Diablo since 97. I know nothing and having nothing good to say, I be a troll.
It's Diablo - game all about finding and trading items. If you don't like AH then don't use it, simple as that.
Thanks for your input. I feel that it oversimplifies the real situation, but duly noted. I really want to stay away from conversations about self-found progression etc. Too volatile lately, lol.
The people hurting the GAH the most are also top in-game farmers (they have so much gear, or could buy it if they want) so no system based on playing the actual game would do anything to them. The best thing you can do is to just wait it out and not buy anything absurdly priced because the longer the game is out, the better the gear on the AH will be.
What I mean by the implementation being the issue, is consider other ways this has been done. I don't want WoW in my D3 but it serves as an econ example. Anyone CAN accumulate massive wealth there. However, that doesn't make them better at raiding than me if I spend my time raiding. That's a system that I think is important. I would prefer to see that relationship in this game but I am not saying it should be using WoW itemization/economy/etc.
Removal of RMAH and add a deposit for listing items. Those two factors will drastically change the way you would prefer this system to your liking.
Very interesting. I'd have to think about some of the less obvious side effects.
Unfortunately, I don't think the RMAH will go anywhere so I'm just trying to think within the realm of what I think actually could happen, even though I doubt Blizz has any intentions of making any kind of change to that relationship.
As to the deposit, would that make some of the lesser gear go away because the cost/profit ratio would become too bad? So items you might use as a Act 4 Hell or Act 1 starter set at some point doesn't leave room for profit? Maybe scaling the deposit on iLvl? Not sure. I suppose that whole approach may be just as good of a fix. Haven't spent much time thinking in that direction before.
As to the deposit, would that make some of the lesser gear go away because the cost/profit ratio would become too bad? So items you might use as a Act 4 Hell or Act 1 starter set at some point doesn't leave room for profit? Maybe scaling the deposit on iLvl? Not sure. I suppose that whole approach may be just as good of a fix. Haven't spent much time thinking in that direction before.
It would remove the inflated prices because people would lose too much money for being stupid and probably increase the cost of early inferno gear. A percentage scale would be the best case; I would be indifferent to this application as I usually sell things easy. Blizzard used to have a deposit, it was a fixed number, but people then cried and they removed it.
I suggested removal of RMAH because of the pay to win feature you don't like, it will never happen though.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Playing Diablo since 97. I know nothing and having nothing good to say, I be a troll.
How about we put some thought into the actually economy of this country. You'll see the same crap happens on a daily in real life. If you don't like diablo 3 economy and are just hunky doory with how people handle 'real' money then maybe talking about the AH is something you should stay away from.
There is no way they are going to limit the use of the AH, that's where the company is making money since this game is not subscription base. They are probably thinking of ways to make it so that you use the auction house more.
How about we put some thought into the actually economy of this country. You'll see the same crap happens on a daily in real life. If you don't like diablo 3 economy and are just hunky doory with how people handle 'real' money then maybe talking about the AH is something you should stay away from.
Unless you can come up with an economical plan that will change the world for the better, convince 80% of the population to drop everything, and riot for a revolution change, the semantics of discussing real world economics holds no merit either. Heck let’s take this further, that fact you have access to a computer should be enough for your well being, let’s talk about the poverty of people in other countries who are suffering and come up with a strategic plan on how to help them first. There are threads for real life issues on this site, I suggest you use them.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Playing Diablo since 97. I know nothing and having nothing good to say, I be a troll.
It's Diablo - game all about finding and trading items. If you don't like AH then don't use it, simple as that.
And farm, farm, farm for weeks without seeing anything interesting. Great alternative. Just get your Wall Street out of my Diablo.
maka, you and I tend to agree about a lot of the principles we'd like to see in this game. You and I have seen expressing those opinions draw alot of fire too. That's why I wanted to avoid that in this thread.
I've been trying to be extremely careful how I express my ideas because there is a lot of vitriol flying around. I want to make sure I am not feeding the flames.
@ Slayerviper
It’s funny that you mention pay-to-win. You really made me realize that I included an argument I don’t really even believe just because it was easy to support. I feel pretty bad about that slip on my part.
Truth be told, I don’t care about anyone being more progressed than me because of progression. I really only care about it because if Blizz has decided that the AH will be integral to progression, then they have to be careful about sources like AH barons driving up inflation/price gouging.
I would rather see me be able to find an upgrade for my low level gear (can’t do Act 2) about every 12 hours. If the drop rates allowed that, the AH would be full to bursting with that gear. The top end stuff, meaning anything more than necessary to beat Act 4, would still be very expensive ideally, because it would still be extremely rare.
This would destroy the low-mid level markets…and I see no problem with that. Did D2 really trade for “just enough to beat Diablo”? I only played solo/lan so I don’t ask that as an authoritative rhetorical. I really got the impression though that it was generally great gear that was traded (outside of the artificial currencies).
That would mean that if rng gave me three glove upgrades and I never saw a helm, the AH is still there to help and would be affordable if I want to buy “just good enough” gear vs the x millions some of that stuff goes for now. If I wanted to buy an OP helm, well, I better settle in for the long haul farming or get lucky with my own OP drop to sell.
I guess a decent summary is that I would love to see the AH cater to the OP gear instead of the “just finishing the game” gear.
I know, I know, Inferno is supposed to be hard. That was the design intent. That design has already been destroyed so isn’t it time to recalibrate?
@nathans1844
I would love to see some actual numbers on the money being collected by RMAH. Without that, it’s extremely hard to judge the accuracy of your comment.
Edit: Because copy/paste from Word was fail? Couldn't read the text.
I would prefer that approach as well, increase low to mid range drop rates, use AH for Godly stuff. I don't have a hate on for you I just disagree with your take on the AH, I see it just as another trade method from before, the problem is it's a "tad" over reliant for progression. The inferno debate is another whole can of worms; if it was tested properly the lack of normal gear finding might not be an issue. I just think everyone would be much happier if itemization was fixed, then adjust drop rates accordingly.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Playing Diablo since 97. I know nothing and having nothing good to say, I be a troll.
The inferno debate is another whole can of worms; if it was tested properly the lack of normal gear finding might not be an issue. I just think everyone would be much happier if itemization was fixed, then adjust drop rates accordingly.
I agree with this too. I am totally ok with the idea of an Inferno that takes a year to complete...as long as we are all on the same playing field. Too many bugs/exploits/etc have made this a system of haves and have nots now is the way it feels to me.
I think with that as a model, it shouldn't be the only source of the best gear either.
Edit:
Re-read this after posting instead of before.
"it shouldn't be the only source of the best gear either"
Should be
"It shouldn't be practically the only place for Inferno viable gear"
Also, I think you are correct on itemization being an issue. Drop rates, it sounds like I agree with you. The LAST thing I want to see is them over-do the drop rates. If it takes gradually bumping them to keep from going over, that's cool.
Adding a deposit on the GAH wouldn't be a BAD idea. Most auctioning systems, be they in-person or virtual, utilize some kind of listing fee to discourage people from:
1) listing total trash and lowering the "prestige" of the auction house
2) wasting the auction house's time by listing items at prices which will never sell
My biggest problem with doing so in the GAH would be surrounding the fact that it's difficult to actually research the value of your item. It's absolutely not anything close to an exact science. The listing fee works in WoW because it's brutally simple to see your competition. This is not the case in D3, and it's almost certainly the driving motivator behind there being no listing fee.
I could be wrong though, I'm certainly not an authority on this, it's just my best guess since usually items that are being auctioned are appraised by experts and the like. The process of valuation in D3 is much more guesswork than calling in an expert in the true style of Pawn Stars.
That's a nice car JFK was shot in, let me call my buddy who's an expert on cars JFK was shot in. HAH!
I agree with this too. I am totally ok with the idea of an Inferno that takes a year to complete...as long as we are all on the same playing field. Too many bugs/exploits/etc have made this a system of haves and have nots now is the way it feels to me.
I know WoW has a similar stance, or did, on the AH.
Attempting to control the AH is actually against the ToS.
RESTRICTIONS AND CONDITIONS OF USE.
You agree:
(i) to use the Auction Houses only for your own individual purposes;
(ii) to access the Auction Houses only with an authorized, unmodified version of Diablo; and
(iii) to accept the risk that you may lose some or all of the value that you exchange as part of your use of the Auction Houses.
You will not:
(i) obtain or attempt to obtain any information from the Auction Houses or Diablo using any method not expressly permitted by Blizzard;
(ii) intercept, examine or otherwise observe any proprietary communications or protocols used by Diablo or the Auction Houses, including, without limitation, through the use of a network analyzer, packet sniffer or other type of software or hardware device;
(iii) use the Auction Houses as an investment vehicle;
(iv) use any third-party software to collect information from or through Diablo or the Auction Houses;
(v) use cheats, automation software (bots), mods, hacks, or any other unauthorized third-party software designed to modify or automate any Auction House process;
(vi) violate any applicable law or regulation in connection with your use of Diablo or the Auction Houses; or
(vii) connect to or use the Auction Houses in any way not expressly permitted by this Auction House TOU.
It seems even making a site that gathers data to analyze the AH may even be.
1) Should the game attempt to reduce the effectiveness of just trying to get ahead/profit/whatever when you do not enter the game world to kill mobs?
2) If a system can be devised to do that without hurting legitimate farmers, what would it look like and would you support it?
So a rough idea would be something like:
a) Reduce the auction limit to something like 5.
Increase the limit by a designated rate for x number of elite kills
c) Make a purchased item not re-postable for a time limit to prevent quick flipping. This could also have a reset value or timer reduction based on elite kills
Example:
For every 10 or 20 or whatever maths out to be fair elite pack kills, you gain one more auction slot in the AH. This "stack" has to be refreshed weekly or maybe even better, in a rolling cycle with elite kills from 7 days ago dropping off stacks.
A purchsed item must be held for 7 days before it can be reposted. I'm not sure that I like the idea of allowing anyone even temporary quick flips so I personally don't like using the "stacks" that give you more auction slots to reduce that but ideas/modifications like that are fair discussion.
(yeah that would go over well like a turd in a punch bowl)
The answer to "why" is exactly this statement. He enjoys it and that's cool. I just have the complete opposite opinion. I find it completely unrewarding and not fun. However, due to the implementation of the AHs, anyone who does this is better at killing mobs which is the part (only part) of the game that I enjoy.
Basically, what I am describing is playing a different game than D3. They are expanding a feature of the game into almost a completely different game. I don't mind that one bit except to the point that it advances them in MY part of the game faster than I can playing in MY part of the game.
What I mean by the implementation being the issue, is consider other ways this has been done. I don't want WoW in my D3 but it serves as an econ example. Anyone CAN accumulate massive wealth there. However, that doesn't make them better at raiding than me if I spend my time raiding. That's a system that I think is important. I would prefer to see that relationship in this game but I am not saying it should be using WoW itemization/economy/etc.
This game is about unbound gear and you would have to change that to use WoW models so I think that's a bad idea. I think they borrowed from WoW itemization too much already, so I would love to see that backed off.
But the WoW model can't be the only way to restore that relationship at least to some degree.
Obviously, the posters so far disagree and that's cool. Just trying to see what the general opinions are.
Removal of RMAH and add a deposit for listing items. Those two factors will drastically change the way you would prefer this system to your liking.
Thanks for your input. I feel that it oversimplifies the real situation, but duly noted. I really want to stay away from conversations about self-found progression etc. Too volatile lately, lol.
Very interesting. I'd have to think about some of the less obvious side effects.
Unfortunately, I don't think the RMAH will go anywhere so I'm just trying to think within the realm of what I think actually could happen, even though I doubt Blizz has any intentions of making any kind of change to that relationship.
As to the deposit, would that make some of the lesser gear go away because the cost/profit ratio would become too bad? So items you might use as a Act 4 Hell or Act 1 starter set at some point doesn't leave room for profit? Maybe scaling the deposit on iLvl? Not sure. I suppose that whole approach may be just as good of a fix. Haven't spent much time thinking in that direction before.
It would remove the inflated prices because people would lose too much money for being stupid and probably increase the cost of early inferno gear. A percentage scale would be the best case; I would be indifferent to this application as I usually sell things easy. Blizzard used to have a deposit, it was a fixed number, but people then cried and they removed it.
I suggested removal of RMAH because of the pay to win feature you don't like, it will never happen though.
Twitter @ diablo3marketwatch
Unless you can come up with an economical plan that will change the world for the better, convince 80% of the population to drop everything, and riot for a revolution change, the semantics of discussing real world economics holds no merit either. Heck let’s take this further, that fact you have access to a computer should be enough for your well being, let’s talk about the poverty of people in other countries who are suffering and come up with a strategic plan on how to help them first. There are threads for real life issues on this site, I suggest you use them.
I've been trying to be extremely careful how I express my ideas because there is a lot of vitriol flying around. I want to make sure I am not feeding the flames.
@ Slayerviper
It’s funny that you mention pay-to-win. You really made me realize that I included an argument I don’t really even believe just because it was easy to support. I feel pretty bad about that slip on my part.
Truth be told, I don’t care about anyone being more progressed than me because of progression. I really only care about it because if Blizz has decided that the AH will be integral to progression, then they have to be careful about sources like AH barons driving up inflation/price gouging.
I would rather see me be able to find an upgrade for my low level gear (can’t do Act 2) about every 12 hours. If the drop rates allowed that, the AH would be full to bursting with that gear. The top end stuff, meaning anything more than necessary to beat Act 4, would still be very expensive ideally, because it would still be extremely rare.
This would destroy the low-mid level markets…and I see no problem with that. Did D2 really trade for “just enough to beat Diablo”? I only played solo/lan so I don’t ask that as an authoritative rhetorical. I really got the impression though that it was generally great gear that was traded (outside of the artificial currencies).
That would mean that if rng gave me three glove upgrades and I never saw a helm, the AH is still there to help and would be affordable if I want to buy “just good enough” gear vs the x millions some of that stuff goes for now. If I wanted to buy an OP helm, well, I better settle in for the long haul farming or get lucky with my own OP drop to sell.
I guess a decent summary is that I would love to see the AH cater to the OP gear instead of the “just finishing the game” gear.
I know, I know, Inferno is supposed to be hard. That was the design intent. That design has already been destroyed so isn’t it time to recalibrate?
@nathans1844
I would love to see some actual numbers on the money being collected by RMAH. Without that, it’s extremely hard to judge the accuracy of your comment. maka, you and I tend to agree about a lot of the principles we'd like to see in this game. You and I have seen expressing those opinions draw alot of fire too. That's why I wanted to avoid that in this thread.
Edit: Because copy/paste from Word was fail? Couldn't read the text.
I would prefer that approach as well, increase low to mid range drop rates, use AH for Godly stuff. I don't have a hate on for you I just disagree with your take on the AH, I see it just as another trade method from before, the problem is it's a "tad" over reliant for progression. The inferno debate is another whole can of worms; if it was tested properly the lack of normal gear finding might not be an issue. I just think everyone would be much happier if itemization was fixed, then adjust drop rates accordingly.
I agree with this too. I am totally ok with the idea of an Inferno that takes a year to complete...as long as we are all on the same playing field. Too many bugs/exploits/etc have made this a system of haves and have nots now is the way it feels to me.
I think with that as a model, it shouldn't be the only source of the best gear either.
Edit:
Re-read this after posting instead of before.
"it shouldn't be the only source of the best gear either"
Should be
"It shouldn't be practically the only place for Inferno viable gear"
Also, I think you are correct on itemization being an issue. Drop rates, it sounds like I agree with you. The LAST thing I want to see is them over-do the drop rates. If it takes gradually bumping them to keep from going over, that's cool.
1) listing total trash and lowering the "prestige" of the auction house
2) wasting the auction house's time by listing items at prices which will never sell
My biggest problem with doing so in the GAH would be surrounding the fact that it's difficult to actually research the value of your item. It's absolutely not anything close to an exact science. The listing fee works in WoW because it's brutally simple to see your competition. This is not the case in D3, and it's almost certainly the driving motivator behind there being no listing fee.
I could be wrong though, I'm certainly not an authority on this, it's just my best guess since usually items that are being auctioned are appraised by experts and the like. The process of valuation in D3 is much more guesswork than calling in an expert in the true style of Pawn Stars.
That's a nice car JFK was shot in, let me call my buddy who's an expert on cars JFK was shot in. HAH!
Agreed ten thousand times over.
Attempting to control the AH is actually against the ToS.
It seems even making a site that gathers data to analyze the AH may even be.
I was wondering about your stance on that, it's not like it gathers very much though.