yes, im talking in terms of a wow pvp server though (where u can actually go kill a low level player in a neutral zone). you can always "pvp" in arenas on a pve server.
people play on pvp servers because they like the option of open ended world pvp.
And yet, a large public outcry has arisen for a while now about griefing and PKing... lower levels complaining that Hillsbrad can never be leveled in due to the incessant amount of high levels looking for a fight.... or what about in zones where PKing is encouraged? Hellfire Penninsula much? Western Plaguelands? How many times must a character endure camping or griefing until it becomes unfair to them when they're new and its their first character? How long should they just buck up and take it, preventing them from participating in the end-game content that Blizzard's WoW devs oh-so-love? Tell me how a level 21 new player who finds themself on the wrong side of the road, camped for hours, deserves to get griefed just because it is available?
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Yes, because everyone I met on WoW I became best friends with and still talk to, and everyone of those people play D3.
Can you stop addressing me now in your feeble attempt to insult me? I'm trying to leave the discussion on "I guess we agree to disagree".
I'll give it a read why not.
So far from what I've read your biggest argument against PKing is that they disrupt your social interaction with other players. Therefore preventing you from making a lasting relationship with someone online. You're forced to roam a lonely existence from game to game wishing and hoping no one will bust in a interrupt your precious cooperative experience EVEN though you have easy, simple to use tools at your disposal to prevent this from happening. You simply cannot adapt and are left in the cold.
I am not trying to insult you. But there is a reason why the phrase "carebear" was coined and you pretty much sum it up perfectly.
And yet, a large public outcry has arisen for a while now about griefing and PKing... lower levels complaining that Hillsbrad can never be leveled in due to the incessant amount of high levels looking for a fight.... or what about in zones where PKing is encouraged? Hellfire Penninsula much? Western Plaguelands? How many times must a character endure camping or griefing until it becomes unfair to them when they're new and its their first character? How long should they just buck up and take it, preventing them from participating in the end-game content that Blizzard's WoW devs oh-so-love? Tell me how a level 21 new player who finds themself on the wrong side of the road, camped for hours, deserves to get griefed just because it is available?
Make a new character, go to a PvE realm. It's that simple.
So far from what I've read your biggest argument against PKing is that they disrupt your social interaction with other players. Therefore preventing you from making a lasting relationship with someone online. You're forced to roam a lonely existence from game to game wishing and hoping no one will bust in a interrupt your precious cooperative experience EVEN though you have easy, simple to use tools at your disposal to prevent this from happening. You simply cannot adapt and are left in the cold.
I am not trying to insult you. But there is a reason why the phrase "carebear" was coined and you pretty much sum it up perfectly.
Easy, simple to use tools? Like what? /camp? /petition? So, I have to halt my gaming experience so you can enjoy an easy, no-skill kill? This game is not about you, or me... this game is about us, the players, the fans, those who love the game for what it is.... a fun game to play with your friends to achieve a common goal. The goal is presented to us... "Kill stuff, collect goodies, beat the game"... it's designed to take place in a community.... much like Diablofans.com... we're a community of like minds who love Diablo. Why, then, would people pit each other against one another for the sake of mere amusement of ourselves? Aren't we supposed to be a community?
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Make a new character, go to a PvE realm. It's that simple.
EDIT, also come on? camped for hours...
Happened to me when I played Horde on Maelstrom in 2005. I couldn't leave Hillsbrad because I kept getting camped at the tower heading towards Tarren Mill.
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------------------------------------------- Those who stand for nothing will fall for anything.
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Easy, simple to use tools? Like what? /camp? /petition? So, I have to halt my gaming experience so you can enjoy an easy, no-skill kill? This game is not about you, or me... this game is about us, the players, the fans, those who love the game for what it is.... a fun game to play with your friends to achieve a common goal. The goal is presented to us... "Kill stuff, collect goodies, beat the game"... it's designed to take place in a community.... much like Diablofans.com... we're a community of like minds who love Diablo. Why, then, would people pit each other against one another for the sake of mere amusement of ourselves? Aren't we supposed to be a community?
I couldn't agree more. Stay out of public games, stick to playing with friends, support the community of players who's values match your own... and see how fast this little "PK problem" fades into nothing?
So far from what I've read your biggest argument against PKing is that they disrupt your social interaction with other players. Therefore preventing you from making a lasting relationship with someone online. You're forced to roam a lonely existence from game to game wishing and hoping no one will bust in a interrupt your precious cooperative experience EVEN though you have easy, simple to use tools at your disposal to prevent this from happening. You simply cannot adapt and are left in the cold.
I am not trying to insult you. But there is a reason why the phrase "carebear" was coined and you pretty much sum it up perfectly.
Oh for the love of God. Can you stop talking to me? I don't even want to associate myself with someone like you anymore.
I played a PvP server in WoW until lvl 70 (yes you literally get camped for hours sometimes) then I got bored and quit, but yes sure I'm a carebear because I'd rather focus on playing cooperatively than stupidly having to make my games private and hide in town when a higher level PK comes in.
Ganking was stupid on WoW, I dealt with it. Do I want to have to deal with it again? No, not at all.
It's not that I CAN'T adapt, because I did. In D2 I stayed away from PKs for the most part, it doesn't mean I should have to change my harmless minding my own business gameplay so some griefer can get his jollies off knowing he disrupted another good time.
It show's just what the majority of PKs are about.
Deceiving, using third party programs, expecting people to bend to your flimsy excuses like "it's a gameplay mechanic!", reveling in others grief because it's "humorous", ambushing people when they are unsuspecting, and expecting people to completely play solo/private games just so you get what you want.
Why should one person get what they want over multiple others complaining when they get killed by the one person?
They shouldn't it's not debatable if you have any common sense. More people = more people to sell products to = more profit.
You want to PK that's great we get that. Blizzard will decide now what happens.
Now, can I leave without you trying to make some passive aggressive comment towards me?
Yes, but if you don't go into public games, you don't interact with this community thing I keep bringing up... this is supposed to be a cooperative game yes? The community aspect is to allow a decently friendly interface for all people, be it new players, or veterans looking for others to explore the darkest depths of hell with. Why should I have to curb my behavior, one that is encouraged by Blizzard, just so I can be assured that my entertainment won't be ruined by something that supposedly cannot be helped?
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------------------------------------------- Those who stand for nothing will fall for anything.
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PK and Griefing happens on WoW pvp servers all the time. The 2 million players who play on those realms seem fine with that.
They didn't mind because they knew that it came with the territory of the servers that they chose to play on, specialized servers that not everyone was forced to play on.
Cheers,
SmashBoy (woke up too late to make French toast today :()
I was all over this thread yesterday and then i left work.. anyway im back now and theres easily another 10 pages which im not gonna read.
I really only came back to say I understand what people are saying about not wanting to be "griefed"... but personally I still love and would want to see PK in D3 because to me its something that made diablo great. It was something I havnt seen in any other game yet. For people like me it was the thrill of the kill.. and not to grief people either because I would simply go in, kill, and then leave the person or group of people alone. No point in CCIng.. you already know you can kill the person.
I think there should def. be PK servers and non-PK servers because there are obviously die hard advocates on both sides of this argument. (You can tell we are die hard because we are debating it over a year in advance).
Easy, simple to use tools? Like what? /camp? /petition? So, I have to halt my gaming experience so you can enjoy an easy, no-skill kill? This game is not about you, or me... this game is about us, the players, the fans, those who love the game for what it is.... a fun game to play with your friends to achieve a common goal. The goal is presented to us... "Kill stuff, collect goodies, beat the game"... it's designed to take place in a community.... much like Diablofans.com... we're a community of like minds who love Diablo. Why, then, would people pit each other against one another for the sake of mere amusement of ourselves? Aren't we supposed to be a community?
Once again, the argument that you are being forced to "halt" your gaming experience is invalid. You are asking all the fans of the unforgiving PvP system to halt their gaming experience by having all sorts of rules and restrictions on how players interact with others. I think that the most important aspect of the b.net atmosphere was that there were very few restrictions on player interaction. It was an unlawful, chaotic society. This lack of regulation, whether you realize it while your are playing or not, is what created such a deep gaming experience. If the only point of the game was, as you put it, "Kill stuff, collect goodies, beat the game" then D2 would have been a very shallow, meaningless experience. You can do this in virtually any game, but there has got to be more to it in order to see the popularity that D2 saw. In D2, it was the unlawful atmosphere. And I don't mean hacks and bugged items. What actually turned people off from the game was hacks and bugged items.
Sure I had had a kick out of grouping with friends and playing through the game, but you are acting as if PvP doesn't matter at all. Battle.net tossed everyone directly into a PvP atmosphere, and I don't necessarely mean the act of killing one another. PvP includes all player interactions, trade, looting, communities etc.... The unlawful aspect of D2 allowed for a virtually endless pit of different strategies involving all PvP play be it combat or any other sort of interaction.
Going out and killing low levels is actually a very tiny fallout of this unlimited player interaction principle that D2 was based on. It just sticks out like a soar thumb. Yes it can be annoying, but it would be a huge mistake to completely revamp the entire game (see the above paragraph) just to remove this one "problem". And frankley, in softcore low level hunting has never even been an issue. I have never once, in all my years of D2, had a low level character get PK'd. And the only high level characters that I remember having been PK'd were in dueling games. So to completely lose the limitless PvP interactions because of this one exadurated problem is just rediculous.
As for HC, the whole reason the online play was so fun was the lack of laws in the D2 world. I'm not even going to get into that again, as my OP explains it all.
It interrupts gameplay, it's annoying so it drives people away, it doesn't provide anything to the gameplay itself just personal experiences of a few.
There are plenty of reasons.
What's the reason for it to stay? "I like to kill people."
Wow, awesome debate.
Had to quote this because one of the main arguments by anti-PKs is that its doesnt provide anything to gameplay.
Thats just not true. Part of diablo (a HUGE part) was the environment. With the actual game itself attempting to create a foreboding environment and then the dog-eat-dog mentality of most players, Blizzard successfully created the evil and diabolic aura which provided a feeling while playing diablo that was different then any other game.
People still progressed at a fast rate so there is no real argument that PvP subtracted anything from diablo except maybe a few broken keyboards... but it did add soemthing great that no other RPG has. An environment in tune with what the game is supposed to be.
Sure we can cut out PK and Diablo can turn into a game of brotherly-love where we prance through the daisies and occasionaly kill a few monsters together. But thats not enough to make Sanctuary a hellish and acopalyptic world. The feeling of being a lone-warrior is needed in a game like this.
In a world torn to pieces and swarming with hellish beasts... do you think there would be more cooperation between people or would the survival instinct kick in and every man starts providing for himself and his closest of friends?
Easy, simple to use tools? Like what? /camp? /petition? So, I have to halt my gaming experience so you can enjoy an easy, no-skill kill? This game is not about you, or me... this game is about us, the players, the fans, those who love the game for what it is....
The game is an RPG with alot of content, alot of PvP.. and alot of PK... always has been and always SHOULD be.
If this is how the game always has been.. how can you say you love the game for what it is when you want to change it...
You obviously loved the game even though it had PK then.. why can't you let the game stay what it always has been then.. and love it again.
P.S.
Sorry for the multiple posts in a row.. took a night off and there are alot of new posts I want to reply to =)
What you don't seem to understand here is that I am not arguing that PK is not in Diablo 2, or that it was not supposed to be in Diablo 2, I am arguing that it SHOULD not be a part of Diablo 3. I am arguing that it is destructive, divisive, and inappropriate. These reasons are backed up with statements such as the ones above in my large post. Saying that it ruins people's fun because they do not want that type of interaction is completely legitimate as an argument. You didn't "disprove" that argument, you just said "I won't consider that a legitimate response because I don't want to".
I have explained countless times why it should be in the game. Becuase the only way to remove it would be to revamp the whole player interaction principle of D2. In many ways other than the actual PK. You have really got to stop repeating arguments that have already been posted at least 200 times in this thread. And in my original post, i did not stop at saying that it is legitimate therefore OK. That was one minor argument backed up by plenty of reasons why the PvP system does not need a facelift. Please, don't take one argument and ignore all of my attempts to back it up. It is this sort of approach that is the reason this thread has seen over 300 posts and practically no progress has been made.
And yet, a large public outcry has arisen for a while now about griefing and PKing... lower levels complaining that Hillsbrad can never be leveled in due to the incessant amount of high levels looking for a fight.... or what about in zones where PKing is encouraged? Hellfire Penninsula much? Western Plaguelands? How many times must a character endure camping or griefing until it becomes unfair to them when they're new and its their first character? How long should they just buck up and take it, preventing them from participating in the end-game content that Blizzard's WoW devs oh-so-love? Tell me how a level 21 new player who finds themself on the wrong side of the road, camped for hours, deserves to get griefed just because it is available?
-------------------------------------------
Those who stand for nothing will fall for anything.
-------------------------------------------
So far from what I've read your biggest argument against PKing is that they disrupt your social interaction with other players. Therefore preventing you from making a lasting relationship with someone online. You're forced to roam a lonely existence from game to game wishing and hoping no one will bust in a interrupt your precious cooperative experience EVEN though you have easy, simple to use tools at your disposal to prevent this from happening. You simply cannot adapt and are left in the cold.
I am not trying to insult you. But there is a reason why the phrase "carebear" was coined and you pretty much sum it up perfectly.
-------------------------------------------
Those who stand for nothing will fall for anything.
-------------------------------------------
Make a new character, go to a PvE realm. It's that simple.
EDIT, also come on? camped for hours...
Easy, simple to use tools? Like what? /camp? /petition? So, I have to halt my gaming experience so you can enjoy an easy, no-skill kill? This game is not about you, or me... this game is about us, the players, the fans, those who love the game for what it is.... a fun game to play with your friends to achieve a common goal. The goal is presented to us... "Kill stuff, collect goodies, beat the game"... it's designed to take place in a community.... much like Diablofans.com... we're a community of like minds who love Diablo. Why, then, would people pit each other against one another for the sake of mere amusement of ourselves? Aren't we supposed to be a community?
-------------------------------------------
Those who stand for nothing will fall for anything.
-------------------------------------------
So then why not introduce PvE realms in Diablo III?
-------------------------------------------
Those who stand for nothing will fall for anything.
-------------------------------------------
Happened to me when I played Horde on Maelstrom in 2005. I couldn't leave Hillsbrad because I kept getting camped at the tower heading towards Tarren Mill.
-------------------------------------------
Those who stand for nothing will fall for anything.
-------------------------------------------
whoa whoa whoa i think we are thinking too hard now
I couldn't agree more. Stay out of public games, stick to playing with friends, support the community of players who's values match your own... and see how fast this little "PK problem" fades into nothing?
Oh for the love of God. Can you stop talking to me? I don't even want to associate myself with someone like you anymore.
I played a PvP server in WoW until lvl 70 (yes you literally get camped for hours sometimes) then I got bored and quit, but yes sure I'm a carebear because I'd rather focus on playing cooperatively than stupidly having to make my games private and hide in town when a higher level PK comes in.
Ganking was stupid on WoW, I dealt with it. Do I want to have to deal with it again? No, not at all.
It's not that I CAN'T adapt, because I did. In D2 I stayed away from PKs for the most part, it doesn't mean I should have to change my harmless minding my own business gameplay so some griefer can get his jollies off knowing he disrupted another good time.
I now suggest you read the page linked by ErU:
http://www.diii.net/columns/671461/bone-appetit-3
It show's just what the majority of PKs are about.
Deceiving, using third party programs, expecting people to bend to your flimsy excuses like "it's a gameplay mechanic!", reveling in others grief because it's "humorous", ambushing people when they are unsuspecting, and expecting people to completely play solo/private games just so you get what you want.
Why should one person get what they want over multiple others complaining when they get killed by the one person?
They shouldn't it's not debatable if you have any common sense. More people = more people to sell products to = more profit.
You want to PK that's great we get that. Blizzard will decide now what happens.
Now, can I leave without you trying to make some passive aggressive comment towards me?
-------------------------------------------
Those who stand for nothing will fall for anything.
-------------------------------------------
RIP: Demon Hunter: lvl 50 | Barb: lvl 60 (plvl 5) | Monk: lvl12 & lvl70 (plvl 200)
They didn't mind because they knew that it came with the territory of the servers that they chose to play on, specialized servers that not everyone was forced to play on.
Cheers,
SmashBoy (woke up too late to make French toast today :()
I really only came back to say I understand what people are saying about not wanting to be "griefed"... but personally I still love and would want to see PK in D3 because to me its something that made diablo great. It was something I havnt seen in any other game yet. For people like me it was the thrill of the kill.. and not to grief people either because I would simply go in, kill, and then leave the person or group of people alone. No point in CCIng.. you already know you can kill the person.
I think there should def. be PK servers and non-PK servers because there are obviously die hard advocates on both sides of this argument. (You can tell we are die hard because we are debating it over a year in advance).
http://www.bingegamer.net/index.php/2008/an-open-letter-to-diablo-iii-fanboys
So true...
Once again, the argument that you are being forced to "halt" your gaming experience is invalid. You are asking all the fans of the unforgiving PvP system to halt their gaming experience by having all sorts of rules and restrictions on how players interact with others. I think that the most important aspect of the b.net atmosphere was that there were very few restrictions on player interaction. It was an unlawful, chaotic society. This lack of regulation, whether you realize it while your are playing or not, is what created such a deep gaming experience. If the only point of the game was, as you put it, "Kill stuff, collect goodies, beat the game" then D2 would have been a very shallow, meaningless experience. You can do this in virtually any game, but there has got to be more to it in order to see the popularity that D2 saw. In D2, it was the unlawful atmosphere. And I don't mean hacks and bugged items. What actually turned people off from the game was hacks and bugged items.
Sure I had had a kick out of grouping with friends and playing through the game, but you are acting as if PvP doesn't matter at all. Battle.net tossed everyone directly into a PvP atmosphere, and I don't necessarely mean the act of killing one another. PvP includes all player interactions, trade, looting, communities etc.... The unlawful aspect of D2 allowed for a virtually endless pit of different strategies involving all PvP play be it combat or any other sort of interaction.
Going out and killing low levels is actually a very tiny fallout of this unlimited player interaction principle that D2 was based on. It just sticks out like a soar thumb. Yes it can be annoying, but it would be a huge mistake to completely revamp the entire game (see the above paragraph) just to remove this one "problem". And frankley, in softcore low level hunting has never even been an issue. I have never once, in all my years of D2, had a low level character get PK'd. And the only high level characters that I remember having been PK'd were in dueling games. So to completely lose the limitless PvP interactions because of this one exadurated problem is just rediculous.
As for HC, the whole reason the online play was so fun was the lack of laws in the D2 world. I'm not even going to get into that again, as my OP explains it all.
Had to quote this because one of the main arguments by anti-PKs is that its doesnt provide anything to gameplay.
Thats just not true. Part of diablo (a HUGE part) was the environment. With the actual game itself attempting to create a foreboding environment and then the dog-eat-dog mentality of most players, Blizzard successfully created the evil and diabolic aura which provided a feeling while playing diablo that was different then any other game.
People still progressed at a fast rate so there is no real argument that PvP subtracted anything from diablo except maybe a few broken keyboards... but it did add soemthing great that no other RPG has. An environment in tune with what the game is supposed to be.
Sure we can cut out PK and Diablo can turn into a game of brotherly-love where we prance through the daisies and occasionaly kill a few monsters together. But thats not enough to make Sanctuary a hellish and acopalyptic world. The feeling of being a lone-warrior is needed in a game like this.
In a world torn to pieces and swarming with hellish beasts... do you think there would be more cooperation between people or would the survival instinct kick in and every man starts providing for himself and his closest of friends?
http://www.bingegamer.net/index.php/2008/an-open-letter-to-diablo-iii-fanboys
So true...
The game is an RPG with alot of content, alot of PvP.. and alot of PK... always has been and always SHOULD be.
If this is how the game always has been.. how can you say you love the game for what it is when you want to change it...
You obviously loved the game even though it had PK then.. why can't you let the game stay what it always has been then.. and love it again.
P.S.
Sorry for the multiple posts in a row.. took a night off and there are alot of new posts I want to reply to =)
http://www.bingegamer.net/index.php/2008/an-open-letter-to-diablo-iii-fanboys
So true...
I have explained countless times why it should be in the game. Becuase the only way to remove it would be to revamp the whole player interaction principle of D2. In many ways other than the actual PK. You have really got to stop repeating arguments that have already been posted at least 200 times in this thread. And in my original post, i did not stop at saying that it is legitimate therefore OK. That was one minor argument backed up by plenty of reasons why the PvP system does not need a facelift. Please, don't take one argument and ignore all of my attempts to back it up. It is this sort of approach that is the reason this thread has seen over 300 posts and practically no progress has been made.