I could see something like this being very effective on specific encounters (or until we start meeting mobs that consistently have high stun mitigation). Since it's been stated that there are NO diminishing returns on stuns I can definitely see something like this being viable, especially paired with party members who can rotate additional stuns in sequence.
There's various ways to implement competition into Diablo 3 without necessitating razor edge e-sports balance. If you bothered to read my thoughts on the subject you wouldn't be asking me these questions.
note: arena is NOT the epitome of competition. It's another result of lazy development lacking creativity that will simply NEVER WORK PERFECTLY IN A GEAR BASED RPG. IT IS FUTILE TO STRIVE FOR PERFECT BALANCE IN THIS GENRE.
Arena almost necessitates extreme balance. What should be done is a directed focus on objective based competition modes, coined GAME MODES by myself, that would NOT be heavy in design requirements. I.e. HORDE MODE - fending off hordes of monsters against an opposing team. Monsters are already developed, simply create a format and difficulty scaling and u have this game mode. This modes are somewhat inherently balanced because of the addition of objectives that require more than maximizing DPS or Survivability. LOGISTICS COMES INTO PLAY. It opens up an entirely new format for competition. Arena deathmatch has been beat to shit by WoW, and we've seen the results. Please GIVE US SOMETHING REVOLUTIONARY. YOU'RE BLIZZARD.
Obviously I'm oversimplifying the design process, but I have faith in a company that has designed so many amazing games in the past. These type of game modes would add massive replayability and satisfy the craving that many have for competition in Diablo 3.
Preaching to the choir? Please tell me you're kidding. I haven't read a single post of someone encouraging a synergistic pvm and competition (pvp and pvm potentially) system other than myself, although there have been few who have agreed with my sentiments. It's as if it's a revolutionary idea that a game doesn't necessarily have to tear itself apart at both ends. Don't take that as hubris either, because I really don't give a shit. It's just the truth.
It's funny because you just used my so called straw man argument to create a straw man argument.
The simple quote "no is saying that PvP will be neglected." (I think you meant "no one") shows your ignorance toward the general mindset of a vast amount of players that see pvp as a threat to pvm. I absolutely agree that pvp SHOULD take a secondary role to PvM, but there is so much ambiguity in that statement. There's literally infinite amount of room for design since the PvM game is now FINISHED and PvP is still very very infantile. Look at the first 5 posts in the PvP forum and you'll see people crying about PvP stepping on PvM. Completely illogical sentiment but it's there, and I'm just fucking sick of hearing it.
The word COMPETITIVE is vague in DETAIL, but not in meaning. Many PvMers who say they don't care about PvP in any way in the same breath interject that PvP should not have any sort of balance or ranking. WHAT THE HELL IS THE POINT THEN? Some people enjoy competition, i.e. having a significant REASON or GOAL to strive for (NOT FUCKING ACHIEVEMENTS PLEASE WHAT A JOKE). IF YOU DON'T THEN DON'T FUCKING PARTICIPATE. GO PLAY PVM. I WILL BE ENJOYING BOTH.
Competition doesn't HAVE to be PvP centered, either. If this shit was done right there would be some wonderful competitive flavor for every gaming type. You people need to look ahead. Yes this game WILL BE AMAZING, but what will add SYNERGISTIC LONGEVITY to it? Well I'll give you some examples:
Content racing - Teams race through content to see who can finish first. For the PvM centered competitionist! See who can finish that boss off the quickest, who can escort that NPC faster, or who can clear an event most efficiently! Great for making a name for your Clan or group of friends! 4. Horde Mode - Team compete to see who can hold off hoards of monsters for longer. A beautiful mix of competition and monster slaying fitting the Diablo theme perfectly!
Not having to maintain 2 full sets of skills for ALL classes. (ie. unlikely to have new skills just for PvP)
- Jay has already confirmed they can change the way individual skills work in PvP vs PvM, but that's different from having to maintain 2 separate sets of skills.
What do you mean by "maintain 2 full set of skills"? Are you saying that players shouldn't have to develop builds specifically suited for pvp and pve? If so, that's probably the most ignorant and illogical expectation I've ever read, and I've ready a lot of idiotic stuff. If you expect the best pve builds to automatically somehow be the most efficient pvp builds by some act of brilliant design you're delusional. That is simply the nature of 2 separate aspects of the game, YOU'LL HAVE TO ADAPT DEPENDING ON YOUR OPPPONENT. SHOCKER I KNOW!!!
Point 1 and 2 are completely valid and acceptable.
Your whole response is bullshit. You inject a reason that blizzard is implementing the RMAH, and you may well be right, but you have no idea, and neither do i. It's very likely it was created for a constant monetary return for the company considering there is no monthly subscription. Who gives a damn. It's in. Accept it.
Your whole response revolves around your opinion that people who pay REAL MONEY don't DESERVE a FICTIONAL FUCKING ITEM? Your logic is ass-backwards. Paying real money for a fictional item is fairly silly to me, but so is paying someone to change my oil. THINK ABOUT WHAT YOU'RE SAYING. IT'S A GAME AND YOU'RE TAKING AN IDEALISTIC APPROACH THAT SOMEHOW IT'S "BAD" AND SOMEONE DOESN'T "DESERVE" AN ITEM IF PAYED FOR WITH MONEY THEY'VE EARNED. YOU HAVE NO MOTHERFUCKING RIGHT TO FORCE THAT LIMITATION ON PEOPLE.
And what exactly was the problem with gaming for fun? There are people who would prefer gaming to be about gaming and not what job you have or how much you can afford.
ABSOLUTELY NOTHING. The funny thing is, people who buy items ARE gaming for fun, they're just enjoying it in another wy. You play the game how you want, shut your mouth, and let others play how they want. I don't usually attack people personally, but when your views cross the line into dictating how other people spend their money/time that warrants some ass chapping.
Jay has (way more recently) said that PvP will always take the backseat to PvM in Diablo III. They are not making a PvP game. It's first and far foremost a PvM game.
No one is arguing that point. You're taking an extremist stance by equating putting PvM first necessitates completely neglecting PvP.
THIS DOESN'T HAVE TO BE THE CASE. MAKE THE DAMN GAME THE BEST IT CAN BE. For fucks fucking sake.
Good info guys. How do you think this knowledge bodes on the effectiveness of Block vs. Dodge, considering item value to % ratio are equivalent?
To me it would appear that dodge is vastly superior in every respect, unless we're taking into account proccing revenge or other on-hit benefits.
Imprtance: It seems to me that Monk survivability will be FAR greater with this primary defensive attribute, ESPECIALLY in higher difficulties where completely avoiding certain spell effect will drastically change the likelihood for survival of your character through unhindered movement (i.e. avoiding slows), avoiding stuns, fears, freezes, etc.
Throw on a shield as a monk and you now have the benefits of a barbarian with the extreme effectiveness of the best passive defense in the game. Seems over the top ON PAPER. Too much theory?
I'm not drawing that comparison. I'm rebutting, specifically, the people who say that COMPETITIVE PvP has no basis in Diablo 3. You're connecting dots that simply are not there.
I simply think these game modes COULD BE incredible for the game. Take that for what it's worth.
Although I highly doubt that PvP is being delayed for ONLY an arena system. I could be wrong, but considering the fact that we saw a working arena system years ago I would expect that more is being developed. I COULD BE WRONG!
We definitely want there to be a PvP mode for PvP players, and we would like that mode to be a really serious, skill-based, very strong [aspect of the game]. I feel that on the side of all our games, we really try to make PvP games that cater to a competitive player, first and foremost. We don't try to dumb down or tone down our PvP games. We make [them] good, strong competitive games. StarCraft is one of the best examples. But in terms of what our actual plans are for Diablo III, we don't have anything to specifically announce right now, mostly because we're still messing around with a bunch of different ideas.
We definitely want there to be a PvP mode for PvP players, and we would like that mode to be a really serious, skill-based, very strong [aspect of the game]. I feel that on the side of all our games, we really try to make PvP games that cater to a competitive player, first and foremost. We don't try to dumb down or tone down our PvP games. We make [them] good, strong competitive games. StarCraft is one of the best examples. But in terms of what our actual plans are for Diablo III, we don't have anything to specifically announce right now, mostly because we're still messing around with a bunch of different ideas.
I'm trying to get a solid grasp on the in & outs of how block will work in Diablo 3.
We know the following:
ALL attacks can be blocked (and dodged) (this means spell, ranged, physical, melee, aoe, etc.)
My question is: What about spell EFFECTS? I.e. take the Demon Hunter's Entangling Shot, for example. Let's say for argument's sake (and so I don't get flamed for creating a "pvp" scenario) that a monster somehow has this ability and is kiting you with it.
Now let's say you block this attack. Does the slow still get applied? Since block is only a set portion of damage that is absorbed, I would ASSUME so.
This is very important to know because later in the game I expect mob packs to have a significant number of cc abilities. If these ability effects (slows, stuns, etc.) can not be mitigated via block, that's a huge hit to the effectiveness of block, ESPECIALLY when juxtaposed to dodge.
The problem is, if this is the case, this would make dodge FAR SUPERIOR to block in every respect.
If you didn't like my example we can take the Mage's Frost Nova, the Witch Doctor's Grasp of the Dead, the Witch Doctor's Horror effect, ANY STUN EFFECT, ANY SLOW EFFECT, ANY REDUCED ATTACK EFFECT etc.
I don’t mean to burst your bubble, because this all sounds fun. Still, it has to be said… It’s not coming for Diablo 3. All that stuff is what Starcraft 2 is built for, and it does a damn fine job of it.
There's limitless potential for these types of ideas. Commenting that they should be relegated to another genre is simply ignorant. There's no basis whatsoever for that logic. If it's fun, it's fun, and this shit would be incredibly fun.
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Apparently this is not worth my time. Idiots can't even read what I've posted multiple times.
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There's various ways to implement competition into Diablo 3 without necessitating razor edge e-sports balance. If you bothered to read my thoughts on the subject you wouldn't be asking me these questions.
note: arena is NOT the epitome of competition. It's another result of lazy development lacking creativity that will simply NEVER WORK PERFECTLY IN A GEAR BASED RPG. IT IS FUTILE TO STRIVE FOR PERFECT BALANCE IN THIS GENRE.
Arena almost necessitates extreme balance. What should be done is a directed focus on objective based competition modes, coined GAME MODES by myself, that would NOT be heavy in design requirements. I.e. HORDE MODE - fending off hordes of monsters against an opposing team. Monsters are already developed, simply create a format and difficulty scaling and u have this game mode. This modes are somewhat inherently balanced because of the addition of objectives that require more than maximizing DPS or Survivability. LOGISTICS COMES INTO PLAY. It opens up an entirely new format for competition. Arena deathmatch has been beat to shit by WoW, and we've seen the results. Please GIVE US SOMETHING REVOLUTIONARY. YOU'RE BLIZZARD.
Obviously I'm oversimplifying the design process, but I have faith in a company that has designed so many amazing games in the past. These type of game modes would add massive replayability and satisfy the craving that many have for competition in Diablo 3.
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The simple quote "no is saying that PvP will be neglected." (I think you meant "no one") shows your ignorance toward the general mindset of a vast amount of players that see pvp as a threat to pvm. I absolutely agree that pvp SHOULD take a secondary role to PvM, but there is so much ambiguity in that statement. There's literally infinite amount of room for design since the PvM game is now FINISHED and PvP is still very very infantile. Look at the first 5 posts in the PvP forum and you'll see people crying about PvP stepping on PvM. Completely illogical sentiment but it's there, and I'm just fucking sick of hearing it.
The word COMPETITIVE is vague in DETAIL, but not in meaning. Many PvMers who say they don't care about PvP in any way in the same breath interject that PvP should not have any sort of balance or ranking. WHAT THE HELL IS THE POINT THEN? Some people enjoy competition, i.e. having a significant REASON or GOAL to strive for (NOT FUCKING ACHIEVEMENTS PLEASE WHAT A JOKE). IF YOU DON'T THEN DON'T FUCKING PARTICIPATE. GO PLAY PVM. I WILL BE ENJOYING BOTH.
Competition doesn't HAVE to be PvP centered, either. If this shit was done right there would be some wonderful competitive flavor for every gaming type. You people need to look ahead. Yes this game WILL BE AMAZING, but what will add SYNERGISTIC LONGEVITY to it? Well I'll give you some examples:
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What do you mean by "maintain 2 full set of skills"? Are you saying that players shouldn't have to develop builds specifically suited for pvp and pve? If so, that's probably the most ignorant and illogical expectation I've ever read, and I've ready a lot of idiotic stuff. If you expect the best pve builds to automatically somehow be the most efficient pvp builds by some act of brilliant design you're delusional. That is simply the nature of 2 separate aspects of the game, YOU'LL HAVE TO ADAPT DEPENDING ON YOUR OPPPONENT. SHOCKER I KNOW!!!
Point 1 and 2 are completely valid and acceptable.
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Your whole response revolves around your opinion that people who pay REAL MONEY don't DESERVE a FICTIONAL FUCKING ITEM? Your logic is ass-backwards. Paying real money for a fictional item is fairly silly to me, but so is paying someone to change my oil. THINK ABOUT WHAT YOU'RE SAYING. IT'S A GAME AND YOU'RE TAKING AN IDEALISTIC APPROACH THAT SOMEHOW IT'S "BAD" AND SOMEONE DOESN'T "DESERVE" AN ITEM IF PAYED FOR WITH MONEY THEY'VE EARNED. YOU HAVE NO MOTHERFUCKING RIGHT TO FORCE THAT LIMITATION ON PEOPLE.
ABSOLUTELY NOTHING. The funny thing is, people who buy items ARE gaming for fun, they're just enjoying it in another wy. You play the game how you want, shut your mouth, and let others play how they want. I don't usually attack people personally, but when your views cross the line into dictating how other people spend their money/time that warrants some ass chapping.
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No one is arguing that point. You're taking an extremist stance by equating putting PvM first necessitates completely neglecting PvP.
THIS DOESN'T HAVE TO BE THE CASE. MAKE THE DAMN GAME THE BEST IT CAN BE. For fucks fucking sake.
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If one more person lumps e sports with competitive pvp I'm going to shit a damn elephant. Association fallacy at it's finest.
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To me it would appear that dodge is vastly superior in every respect, unless we're taking into account proccing revenge or other on-hit benefits.
Imprtance: It seems to me that Monk survivability will be FAR greater with this primary defensive attribute, ESPECIALLY in higher difficulties where completely avoiding certain spell effect will drastically change the likelihood for survival of your character through unhindered movement (i.e. avoiding slows), avoiding stuns, fears, freezes, etc.
Throw on a shield as a monk and you now have the benefits of a barbarian with the extreme effectiveness of the best passive defense in the game. Seems over the top ON PAPER. Too much theory?
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I simply think these game modes COULD BE incredible for the game. Take that for what it's worth.
Although I highly doubt that PvP is being delayed for ONLY an arena system. I could be wrong, but considering the fact that we saw a working arena system years ago I would expect that more is being developed. I COULD BE WRONG!
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http://pc.gamespy.co...i/901260p3.html
Direct quote from Jay Wilson.
http://www.youtube.c...d&v=J-zZRhgnnRM
Interview on front page in support of a solid COMPETITIVE PvP system. Devs even say how excited they are to participate.
This should make everyone shut the fuck up about PvP not having a basis in Diablo 3.
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http://pc.gamespy.co...i/901260p3.html
Direct quote from Jay Wilson. This should make everyone shut the fuck up about COMPETITIVE PvP not having a basis in Diablo 3.
http://www.youtube.c...d&v=J-zZRhgnnRM
Interview on front page in support of a solid COMPETITIVE PvP system.
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We know the following:
ALL attacks can be blocked (and dodged) (this means spell, ranged, physical, melee, aoe, etc.)
My question is: What about spell EFFECTS? I.e. take the Demon Hunter's Entangling Shot, for example. Let's say for argument's sake (and so I don't get flamed for creating a "pvp" scenario) that a monster somehow has this ability and is kiting you with it.
Now let's say you block this attack. Does the slow still get applied? Since block is only a set portion of damage that is absorbed, I would ASSUME so.
This is very important to know because later in the game I expect mob packs to have a significant number of cc abilities. If these ability effects (slows, stuns, etc.) can not be mitigated via block, that's a huge hit to the effectiveness of block, ESPECIALLY when juxtaposed to dodge.
The problem is, if this is the case, this would make dodge FAR SUPERIOR to block in every respect.
If you didn't like my example we can take the Mage's Frost Nova, the Witch Doctor's Grasp of the Dead, the Witch Doctor's Horror effect, ANY STUN EFFECT, ANY SLOW EFFECT, ANY REDUCED ATTACK EFFECT etc.
0
There's limitless potential for these types of ideas. Commenting that they should be relegated to another genre is simply ignorant. There's no basis whatsoever for that logic. If it's fun, it's fun, and this shit would be incredibly fun.