Pvp will be fine. I dont understand what in the world makes you guys think tdm mode somehow invalidates all strategy, and "skill". I played tdm in a lot of shooters, in tournaments too. No one there took it lightly.
This zerg fest your talking about isnt gonna happen but at the lowest possible level of pvp. Near the top of the matchmaking, I'm pretty sure they will be some very tight, fun games. You SHOULD be facing like-minded individuals and teams.
I don't think PvPers are upset so much about the current system, but rather that system being the climax of PvP in Diablo 3. I think people expect a lot more from Blizzard, and simply can't understand why some variety and flavor can't be added to the PvP scene. There are ways to please both PvPers and PvMers so that an all-around great game can be achieved, but instead people seem to want to turn the argument into an "all or nothing" debate. We're all in this together, people. Adding options to the game for a wider audience to enjoy is usually not a bad decision, especially when the game would benefit so much from it (think replay value).
For the quadrillionth time we don't want razor edge balance at the expense of the PvE game. WE DON'T WANT THAT. IF POSSIBLE it would be nice to have PvP abilities separated from PvE if the imbalance is ridiculous, (Jay Wilson has stated that the system is already implemented to achieve this) but mainly we're simply asking for some FUN and RESPECTABLE PvP systems rather than the mindless zerg PvP that's in the game now.
Please stop using this argument!!!
Who are "we"? The original poster who started this very thread wants it, so it's somewhat possible that the response was to him, you know.
"We" would be people who realize that the heaping pile that is PvP currently in Diablo 3 is a disgrace to the Blizzard name. "We" are also rational people who do realize that this is primarily a PvE game, but have enough common sense to realize that a small amount (when compared with effort put into PvE) of PvP flavor in it's midst would add a tremendous amount of fun and enormous amount of replay value, which would also benefit the game greatly.
Yeah, and it would definitely just take two minutes to implement too, damn them lazy bastards.
Currently we have 1, I repeat ONE single arena mode for PvP. Are you really trying to infer that this is an acceptable balance of development time compared to the other 99.9999999999% of the game that's completely devoted to PvE?
I understand this is primarily a PvE game, and I'm fine with that. The point is that it would take a very minute amount of effort (when compared with PvE developement) to implement a few creative PvP options. It wouldn't hurt ANYONE and the game would be much more well-rounded and draw in a broader audience because of it.
If even a fraction of development was spent on PvP (judging by how awesome PvE is looking) I have no doubt we could have a great PvP experience in Diablo 3.
Explain to me what the responsibilities of the "PvP strike team" (Jay Wilson quote) are again? What do they even do?
They don't want PvP to be a focus because PvP takes time and resources to balance. If you do it whereby you change the skill for both you get what happened to WoW - one minute a class is UP in PvP but OP in PvE and then they balance the PvP side and it now sucks in PvE. It happens because the games are different.
balancing PvE is simple as they can say *okay every class has to put out 10k damage over a minute*...
Now in PvP that doesn't work. Because the Monk's chip damage won't go toe-to-toe with the Barb's bigger hits. Even naked and just having them auto attack; its impossible to get them to kill each other at the same time.
Now that you have done that the Monk's dps in PvE is suddenly 20k instead of 10k per minute because it needed a nuke boost for PvP.
(this is a very bad example showing that balance can't be universal; it has too many factors which is WHY blizz had to choose; PvE or PvP focus. They went with PvE).
For the quadrillionth time we don't want razor edge balance at the expense of the PvE game. WE DON'T WANT THAT. IF POSSIBLE it would be nice to have PvP abilities separated from PvE if the imbalance is ridiculous, (Jay Wilson has stated that the system is already implemented to achieve this) but mainly we're simply asking for some FUN and RESPECTABLE PvP systems rather than the mindless zerg PvP that's in the game now.
Blizzard never stated that their aim is to make the game easier than D2, probably just the opposite. A lot of people seem to just equate casual with easy, but if you actually read interview and so on you'd know that what they mean with casual is the ability to play it in smaller chunks of time and still be able to progress, just like the other Diablo games.
That Blizzard aims for "easy to learn hard to master" is not exactly new and Diablo 2 was't exactly that complex of a game.
No, this is EXACTLY the point that Jay Wilson was trying to make in his interview on PvP. I.e. no competition encouragement, no balance whatsoever, no rewards which equates to mindless zerg pvp. Ugh. Sounds horrible. So disappointing.
There are rewards, titles and stuff for your banner. What do you want, gear for pvp? That would be stupid sice d3 is not a game about pvp. They said they would not allow pvp balance to control PvM.
I do wish they would add a little more competition though.
How about aesthetic features for your character (i.e. BLOODY EARS, SKULLS, BONES hanging) for, say, killing a great player in a 1v1 duel.
How about a title and ranking system rather than some half-assed title "that shows you've done a lot of pvp." Ugh. Disgustingly lazy.
How about a "winner takes all" arena where opponents put up gold or items for grabs.
How about some objective based PvP like capture the flag, defend the NPC, hoarde mode (a nice combination of competition and PvE where 2 teams would compete to hold off waves of monsters)
ETC ETC ETC I just thought of those in 2 minutes.
My god there are so many options and this game could be so amazing for both PvE and PvP. AHHHHH.
Blizzard never stated that their aim is to make the game easier than D2, probably just the opposite. A lot of people seem to just equate casual with easy, but if you actually read interview and so on you'd know that what they mean with casual is the ability to play it in smaller chunks of time and still be able to progress, just like the other Diablo games.
That Blizzard aims for "easy to learn hard to master" is not exactly new and Diablo 2 was't exactly that complex of a game.
No, this is EXACTLY the point that Jay Wilson was trying to make in his interview on PvP. I.e. no competition encouragement, no balance whatsoever, no rewards which equates to mindless zerg pvp. Ugh. Sounds horrible. So disappointing.
I really don't understand this "catering to the casual market" argument at all. I think even "casual" players want goals to achieve, and enjoy a sense of accomplishment when they achieve them.
Therefore, from a PvP perspective or not, I don't see how dumbing a game down to a state where everyone is essentially on the same level in their gameplay because it's so damn easy will do anything but make people get bored with the game faster. I also don't understand how having a ranking system will drive "casuals" away. People enjoy having goals to reach (even if they're potentially unobtainable.) That's the nature of this game genre and what adds to it's flavor. I would think having a ranking system would encourage "casuals" to strive to get better. Eventually mindless zerging will get old to anyone. Then what happens?
They said they can have mechanics like reduced durations and stuff for pvp, not completely different damage numbers
I assume you're referring to Jay Wilson's quote on their "snowy system" which is the system that's already implemented to separate PvP and PvE ability effects when necessary.
What he ACTUALLY said was that it would get "tricky" when tweaking damage numbers. I would think the vast majority of design development would be classified as "tricky." Tricky doesn't mean it can't be done. It just means it might take a little effort. Explain to me what else the "PvP team" is responsible for if not this?
It's the third time i tell you the reason why they are not making an official visible rank. PvP will be a unpolished modility inside D3. They can't make a rank and say "Cherubdown's team is the #1" if the whole competition systen is broken.
Ranks only works for fair activities. PvP in D3 will not be fair at release. Ranks and victories would problably only means lucky in a paper, stone and scisor game. They don't want people focusing their attention in unpolished parts of the game, like PvP.
Your argument is fallacious. No game has ever been or will be completely "fair." There's always balance issues, exploits, bugs, etc etc. Hell, look at WoW in it's current state. There's still overpowered classes and they can't get it right after 7 years. LOOK AT STARTCRAFT, heralded as one of the most competitive e-sport games worldwide. People are constantly complaining about balance issues there. They can't get it perfect and that's all the game is geared toward. THAT'S FINE. Most of us are not expecting a damn E-Sport. What we are expecting is a dedicated team to cater to our version of fun in Diablo 3. I.e. attempting to balance through the evolution of the game and maintaining a respectable, competitive PvP system that doesn't interfere with PvE.
Is that really too much to ask, and would it really HURT the game? OF course not. It would greatly benefit the game and attract more of a player base.
There's a pretty simple reason not to make pvp majorly competetive.
Once you put in a system where people are ranked, then you have to work on balance. This game isn't like WoW where you have a pretty finite number of builds or sc2 where you have a finite number of units. This game has in the millions of potential combinations per character. Balancing that would probably take decades of work... and do you REALLY want the game to be delayed to 2042 just so they can put in a solid competetive pvp system? That is of course assuming balancing it would even be POSSIBLE with that many combinations.
not necessarily
but STILL I don't see the problem with balancing a bit
if they notice a build raping too hard in PvP all they have to do is lower their dmg a bit but it's not necesarilly needed
Because Diablo is, was, and always will be primarily a pve game. If you tweak damage down for an ability and break a viable pve build, you're hurting the game.
Also, remember, the fun of Diablo pvp is trying to find those overpowered combos and then seeing what others come up with to counter them. Balancing it is counter to a large core of the fun of diablo pvp.
Did you even bother reading the OP? PvP can be developed COMPLETELY separate from PvE. The system is already implemented to achieve this, according to the lead developer of the D 3. The "PvP has to suck because otherwise PvE will suffer argument is dead. There is no point in rehashing it over and over in every single thread where PvP is mentioned.
I'd be willing to wait on Diablo 3's release for them to add more to the PvP side of the table.
As would I, but we need some promises. What I'm not willing to do is settle for the heaping pile that we have currently (system wise - not gameplay wise, obviously).
I agree completely 101%. I've been on a crusade on these forums for the past couple of days trying to make those exact points. To push things further, we need a visible ladder system at least, something to make the arena even worth it to be in the game. E-Sport != Competitive. I need that in my signature.
I don't want to insult the guy, but it really amazes me how blindly fanatical he can be when he's basically equating any form of competitive PvP in Diablo 3 to "E-Sports." Like it's some terrifying thing that would destroy the game. Absolutely ludicrous.
Developers don't have infinite time and PvP is a whole 'nother system that needs to be tweaked and balanced on an entirely different principle than PvE. Would you prefer Blizzard delay the release of the game for another year or two? I certainly wouldn't.
It's already been stated that they have a system design in place for the separation of PvP and PvE abilities.
It's also been stated that there is a match making system in place, albeit invisible due to some misguided prejudice against competitive PvP.
Honestly, what else does the "PvP strike team" have to do? You're basically just pulling dates out of your ass. Furthermore, everything doesn't have to be perfectly balanced at release. Actually, it never is with any game. There should be continuous development after release, or at the very release some promise of support rather than a fanatical "over my dead body" (direct quote about allowing PvP to dictate design decisions in D3 from Jay Wilson) view against competitive PvP. What we have now simply isn't going to cut it for anyone who enjoys competitive PvP.
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I don't think PvPers are upset so much about the current system, but rather that system being the climax of PvP in Diablo 3. I think people expect a lot more from Blizzard, and simply can't understand why some variety and flavor can't be added to the PvP scene. There are ways to please both PvPers and PvMers so that an all-around great game can be achieved, but instead people seem to want to turn the argument into an "all or nothing" debate. We're all in this together, people. Adding options to the game for a wider audience to enjoy is usually not a bad decision, especially when the game would benefit so much from it (think replay value).
0
"We" would be people who realize that the heaping pile that is PvP currently in Diablo 3 is a disgrace to the Blizzard name. "We" are also rational people who do realize that this is primarily a PvE game, but have enough common sense to realize that a small amount (when compared with effort put into PvE) of PvP flavor in it's midst would add a tremendous amount of fun and enormous amount of replay value, which would also benefit the game greatly.
0
Currently we have 1, I repeat ONE single arena mode for PvP. Are you really trying to infer that this is an acceptable balance of development time compared to the other 99.9999999999% of the game that's completely devoted to PvE?
I understand this is primarily a PvE game, and I'm fine with that. The point is that it would take a very minute amount of effort (when compared with PvE developement) to implement a few creative PvP options. It wouldn't hurt ANYONE and the game would be much more well-rounded and draw in a broader audience because of it.
If even a fraction of development was spent on PvP (judging by how awesome PvE is looking) I have no doubt we could have a great PvP experience in Diablo 3.
Explain to me what the responsibilities of the "PvP strike team" (Jay Wilson quote) are again? What do they even do?
- no balance
- no design
- no ranking system
WTF do they do?
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For the quadrillionth time we don't want razor edge balance at the expense of the PvE game. WE DON'T WANT THAT. IF POSSIBLE it would be nice to have PvP abilities separated from PvE if the imbalance is ridiculous, (Jay Wilson has stated that the system is already implemented to achieve this) but mainly we're simply asking for some FUN and RESPECTABLE PvP systems rather than the mindless zerg PvP that's in the game now.
Please stop using this argument!!!
0
How about aesthetic features for your character (i.e. BLOODY EARS, SKULLS, BONES hanging) for, say, killing a great player in a 1v1 duel.
How about a title and ranking system rather than some half-assed title "that shows you've done a lot of pvp." Ugh. Disgustingly lazy.
How about a "winner takes all" arena where opponents put up gold or items for grabs.
How about some objective based PvP like capture the flag, defend the NPC, hoarde mode (a nice combination of competition and PvE where 2 teams would compete to hold off waves of monsters)
ETC ETC ETC I just thought of those in 2 minutes.
My god there are so many options and this game could be so amazing for both PvE and PvP. AHHHHH.
0
No, this is EXACTLY the point that Jay Wilson was trying to make in his interview on PvP. I.e. no competition encouragement, no balance whatsoever, no rewards which equates to mindless zerg pvp. Ugh. Sounds horrible. So disappointing.
0
Therefore, from a PvP perspective or not, I don't see how dumbing a game down to a state where everyone is essentially on the same level in their gameplay because it's so damn easy will do anything but make people get bored with the game faster. I also don't understand how having a ranking system will drive "casuals" away. People enjoy having goals to reach (even if they're potentially unobtainable.) That's the nature of this game genre and what adds to it's flavor. I would think having a ranking system would encourage "casuals" to strive to get better. Eventually mindless zerging will get old to anyone. Then what happens?
0
I assume you're referring to Jay Wilson's quote on their "snowy system" which is the system that's already implemented to separate PvP and PvE ability effects when necessary.
What he ACTUALLY said was that it would get "tricky" when tweaking damage numbers. I would think the vast majority of design development would be classified as "tricky." Tricky doesn't mean it can't be done. It just means it might take a little effort. Explain to me what else the "PvP team" is responsible for if not this?
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Your argument is fallacious. No game has ever been or will be completely "fair." There's always balance issues, exploits, bugs, etc etc. Hell, look at WoW in it's current state. There's still overpowered classes and they can't get it right after 7 years. LOOK AT STARTCRAFT, heralded as one of the most competitive e-sport games worldwide. People are constantly complaining about balance issues there. They can't get it perfect and that's all the game is geared toward. THAT'S FINE. Most of us are not expecting a damn E-Sport. What we are expecting is a dedicated team to cater to our version of fun in Diablo 3. I.e. attempting to balance through the evolution of the game and maintaining a respectable, competitive PvP system that doesn't interfere with PvE.
Is that really too much to ask, and would it really HURT the game? OF course not. It would greatly benefit the game and attract more of a player base.
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Did you even bother reading the OP? PvP can be developed COMPLETELY separate from PvE. The system is already implemented to achieve this, according to the lead developer of the D 3. The "PvP has to suck because otherwise PvE will suffer argument is dead. There is no point in rehashing it over and over in every single thread where PvP is mentioned.
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Do it.
0
As would I, but we need some promises. What I'm not willing to do is settle for the heaping pile that we have currently (system wise - not gameplay wise, obviously).
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I don't want to insult the guy, but it really amazes me how blindly fanatical he can be when he's basically equating any form of competitive PvP in Diablo 3 to "E-Sports." Like it's some terrifying thing that would destroy the game. Absolutely ludicrous.
1
It's already been stated that they have a system design in place for the separation of PvP and PvE abilities.
It's also been stated that there is a match making system in place, albeit invisible due to some misguided prejudice against competitive PvP.
Honestly, what else does the "PvP strike team" have to do? You're basically just pulling dates out of your ass. Furthermore, everything doesn't have to be perfectly balanced at release. Actually, it never is with any game. There should be continuous development after release, or at the very release some promise of support rather than a fanatical "over my dead body" (direct quote about allowing PvP to dictate design decisions in D3 from Jay Wilson) view against competitive PvP. What we have now simply isn't going to cut it for anyone who enjoys competitive PvP.
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No one is disputing that. There's absolutely no reason Diablo can't remain a PvE game "at it's core" with some fabulous PvP flavoring included.
Stop thinking in an absolutist, "one-or-the-other," tribalistic mindset.