Seeing as how runes are our new "talent tree" it doesn't make much sense to me to randomize the result. I don't want to stick rank 7 runes into an ability and hope they appear as the type of rune I wanted, only to eventually toss all my gold away to get that type of rune from a mystic, only to have shitty affixes.
We already have random item drops, with random item affixes. I personally think it sucks that if we go forward with jay's proposal we'll be basically randomly specializing our characters. That sincerely frustrates me. Who the hell has time for that. I'd rather not sit around jerking off in town all day, personally.
First post on the forums
Anyway, I didn't see anyone who thought randomizing runes was a great idea, so I figured I'd give my two cents.
Imagine to the contrary that runes are still locked to a skill and color, but you get to choose exactly what you want. The problem is that if you don't choose perfectly then obviously you've just gimped yourself and wasted the rune. Given that tier 7 runes are rare, it's absolutely critical that you choose correctly.
In effect, it's kind of like the skill point system from Diablo II, in that you need to do significant research or risk messing up your character. If you change your mind later, want to try new builds, or Blizzard changes the balancing of the skills, then you are out of luck.
Instead, if runes are randomly assigned color, then you can just pop one in your favorite skill on the fly and hope for the best. It still might require theorycrafting later down the road, but you aren't penalized heavily for making the wrong initial choice. In addition, there are always unusual runes floating around out there if you want to try a weird new build.
Now, to the people who would say "It will take too long to find the rune I want", I say that you have no idea how common/rare a tier 7 rune is. If they are totally random and drop slightly more often, it would take about the same effort to find your "ideal" rune.
And if you're of the "I think it's TOO random" crowd, this is obviously more of a personal preference. There are some gamers that like randomness and some that don't. Honestly Diablo is supposed to be random, so I don't see the issue.
(I'm still not sure I like the idea of paying gold to switch runes, as it feels like the "respeccing" they were trying to avoid)
I hope it is something more like you find an unattuned rune and then you use the mystic to craft that unattuned rune into a colour of your choosing and it will also acquire a few random properties or something. I think I'd like that system quite a bit. At least more than it randomly choosing at the moment you socket it to a skill.
Edit: Or perhaps you can craft it or just socket it and have it randomize itself.
It's possible that both colored and unattuned runes drop, but that unattuned runes have the potential to give additional power to players who are willing to sink the gold/shards into randoming them.
For example, socketing a Rank 7 Crimson into your spell would just give the Rank 7 Crimson effects. No more, no less.
On the other hand, socketing a Rank 7 Unattuned would give you a randomized rune with additional Charm/Jewel type affixes.
If you just want to try a new build, you could just buy a single Rank 7 Crimson and use it to try out your build. However, if you really want to maximize power you have to buy or "reroll" multiple Rank 7 Unattuned until you get a Crimson with good affixes.
I feel like people are assuming that unattuned runes will be the only level 7 runes that drop. Nah, there will still be the normal runes (as of now, there was talk of making all runes unattuned which would suck imo).
So you will presumably have the runes that you like already, while you're running for gear at end-game...
Thing is, once in a while an unattuned rune is gonna drop. Bonus! Remember, unattuned runes, once you pop them in, will also have +affixes associated with them. So, you can go the safe route with a tuned rune (crimson, alabaster, etc), but when you get an unattuned runes, pop that baby in and see if it's what you want! If it is, BONUS! Awesome rune, plus stats! If not, SLANG IT ON THE AH. And that brings me to my next point:
You can buy the perfect rune for your build on the AH, from the guy who found the rune, tuned it, didn't like the stats, and sold it.
Literally everyone wins. Everyone.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions."
-Thomas Jefferson
Also I was just thinking about this problem, but maybe it could work like this.
The game drops all 5 runes PLUS unatunned runes that have a random effect. So you have the chance to find all 5 regular runes, PLUS the chance to get an unattuned one that has the randomly selected effect to the power. I find this idea far more attractive, though still BAD, than the "Every rune is random" idea.
Just a thought....
When I initially read your post I thought this was a good idea. Then I thought about it a bit (This might not be the case if we don't know the rarity of rune drops):
- If the drop-chance for the 5 runes AND the unatunned runes are equal, meaning the unatunned rune acts as an "extra rune" totalling as 6, then I don't see the point of having the unatunned rune. If for instance you pick up an unatunned rune, you'll be like: well I might as well just use it cause the chances are as good to pick up 1 of the other 5 runes. Thus you don't really take a chance when using the unatunned rune.
- On the other hand, if the unatunned rune drops more frequently than the other 5 runes (BUT with the same drop-chance as the "6" drops mentioned above), THEN you're going to take a bigger chance/risk for putting it in a skill.
Also I was just thinking about this problem, but maybe it could work like this.
The game drops all 5 runes PLUS unatunned runes that have a random effect. So you have the chance to find all 5 regular runes, PLUS the chance to get an unattuned one that has the randomly selected effect to the power. I find this idea far more attractive, though still BAD, than the "Every rune is random" idea.
Just a thought....
When I initially read your post I thought this was a good idea. Then I thought about it a bit (This might not be the case if we don't know the rarity of rune drops):
- If the drop-chance for the 5 runes AND the unatunned runes are equal, meaning the unatunned rune acts as an "extra rune" totalling as 6, then I don't see the point of having the unatunned rune. If for instance you pick up an unatunned rune, you'll be like: well I might as well just use it cause the chances are as good to pick up 1 of the other 5 runes. Thus you don't really take a chance when using the unatunned rune.
- On the other hand, if the unatunned rune drops more frequently than the other 5 runes (BUT with the same drop-chance as the "6" drops mentioned above), THEN you're going to take a bigger chance/risk for putting it in a skill.
YDG?
The point, as posted previous, would be that the unattuned would act as a random variable. Say a crimson rune raises the damage of an attack from 350% weapon damage to 570% weapon damage, now the unattuned rolls as a crimson rune but in stead of 570% it could go to 700%.
Also I was just thinking about this problem, but maybe it could work like this.
The game drops all 5 runes PLUS unatunned runes that have a random effect. So you have the chance to find all 5 regular runes, PLUS the chance to get an unattuned one that has the randomly selected effect to the power. I find this idea far more attractive, though still BAD, than the "Every rune is random" idea.
Just a thought....
When I initially read your post I thought this was a good idea. Then I thought about it a bit (This might not be the case if we don't know the rarity of rune drops):
- If the drop-chance for the 5 runes AND the unatunned runes are equal, meaning the unatunned rune acts as an "extra rune" totalling as 6, then I don't see the point of having the unatunned rune. If for instance you pick up an unatunned rune, you'll be like: well I might as well just use it cause the chances are as good to pick up 1 of the other 5 runes. Thus you don't really take a chance when using the unatunned rune.
- On the other hand, if the unatunned rune drops more frequently than the other 5 runes (BUT with the same drop-chance as the "6" drops mentioned above), THEN you're going to take a bigger chance/risk for putting it in a skill.
YDG?
The point, as posted previous, would be that the unattuned would act as a random variable. Say a crimson rune raises the damage of an attack from 350% weapon damage to 570% weapon damage, now the unattuned rolls as a crimson rune but in stead of 570% it could go to 700%.
My bad. Two totally different ideas...my mind kinda skipped the "unatunned runes that have a random effect" part. But your random effect idea will suffice if all the drops are equal (assuming it is what you meant).
I was actually hoping this feature was going to go through! This finally makes your diablo 3 character customizable! The problem with having all the skills and being able to choose your runes is that you could finish your character very quickly. Now you have to invest many runes on your core 6-ish skills to just complete your basic build. Just like Jay Wilson said, you need a time investment or else everybody would have every option too quickly. I want to play this game 5 years after release and this balances customization and re-playability.
The problem with unattuned runes is that the runesystem is basicly your way to customize your character. Having them adding random effects is like the game randomizing on how you should play the game. The game decides your playstyle.
Now there are still things we dont quite know yet. How rare will these lvl 7 runes be? Will we be able to unattune them with the mystic (and how much would that cost)? Also the AH will be swarming with runes.
Still if you get unlucky (like some people will) you will have to attune the rune to a skill MANY times before you can get the wanted effect. Maybe at the same time the rune for that skill is what everyone else wants (for example Crimson Rune for Meteor), so its either not on the AH or insanely expensive (or maybe you can just buy it for real money). Basicly you are screwed. And this is just for 1 of the 6 skills in your build.
I understand that Blizzard loves randomization, but i think doing that to our playstyle is the wrong way to go.
I believe they said that you will be able to pay a certain artisan to take the runes out for you. (for a fee)
You can take the runes out yourself the artisan resets the rune for you. (for a fee)
Where did you read that? i dont think jay confirmed this when he was sharing the rune change idea at the press event in august, and i havent heard/seen any runestone information prior to site update yesterday.
The plan has always been that you can take runes out and switch them when you want. Unattuned runes would basically just be rune gambling. You may get the color/affix you want, you may not. It would still be removable, but only work for that skill now. The idea though is you could take that risk of getting a really great rune, or you could sell the unattuned rune to someone who wants to take that risk.
Anyways I'd probably just stick to regular runes and sell my unattuned ones. I'm not THAT concerned about min-maxing.
There's a whole lot of unknown variables at play here unfortunately. Fortunately, that means that the fact that unattuned runes exist in the current build of the game is not the end of the world.
Blizzard is an iterative design company. Jay said they wanted to try this other system to see how it feels. So maybe it's just present in their internal testing right now to check out. If it turns out to be bad, they will change it. And change it again until it feels good.
I strongly suspect the version where only unattuned runes drop and you roll the dice every time you place it into a skill will not go live. No one really seems particularly happy about that idea. So I expect them to try it, find out it's too harsh, and then dial it back a bit. Perhaps unattuned runes will serve some different role, or be removed altogether.
The case that Jay Wilson made for it was that runes didn't have the same random character that the rest of Diablo's item drops had. I guess he forgot about gems, which drop of a particular quality and color. But to me runes are different. Runes are not a part of your character's gearset, they're a part of your character's skill set, or build. Random runes would be like leveling up in D2 and choosing a skill tree to put a point in. "Alright, let's put a point in Combat Skills, I hope I get Whirlwind! Darn, got Double Throw instead. Oh well, better luck next time..." That would feel super lame, because the character's build is the fundamental part of planning a class. Your gear drops are random and you hope to find gear that supplements your chosen build, but you've always had the freedom to choose which combination of skills and attributes you wanted to use. They've made runes such a vital part of how a character plays that I don't think they'll be able to get away with much randomness.
I think where they'll end up is runes will have a known color, lock to a skill when you put it in and have random modifiers as well. That way you can get the red rune you want no matter what (so that you can play your class the way you want), and you can continue the item hunt to look for the right modifier in the meantime.
So when I first heard of the new Skill Rune system they are trying out (the random, unattuned runes with random stats) I liked the idea. The reason I liked the idea was because I was under the impression that Unattuned Runes dropping was IN ADDITION to regular Runes dropping as well.
First of all, I still haven't heard if it is or isn't like that. I assume it isn't, please correct me if I'm wrong.
In short, I believe keeping plain Runes in addition to Unattuned Runes alleviates the frustration but keeps the fun parts of the new system.
They should have regular Runes still drop but they don't have any of the stat bonuses of Attuned Runes. This way people can go with "what they know" (or feel) to work by using regular Runes until they find/trade/buy that Attuned Rune they are really looking for. This allows people to experiment with Unattuned Runes but still have regular Rune "backups" to use.
Allow the Mystic (or something) to create regular Rune types at a decent cost + materials and keep Unattuned Runes as a loot drop. Best of both worlds. People will still really want the Unattuned Runes since they will have stat affixes.
I think the system could work awesomely if they keep both types of Runes in. I can see how it could be frustrating having such a random factor to something that is supposed to be a HUGE/KEY part to customizing your play style, BUT...I can also see how it can be fun/exciting to experiment and find the PERFECT Rune or to buy and sell them.
I'm pretty torn between the old system and the new one, which is why I started thinking about this.
I'm almost certain that unattuned will drop in addition to regular runes.
When the article on the change was first posted on Diablofans, I too got the impression that ALL runes were unattuned or plain, at drop. Later however, a mod changed it to ease up some confusion.
I like the idea of both dropping as well. I don't understand people's arguments against, though I'm not closed-minded to it..
If both types drop, by 60 you will presumably have the runes that you like already, while you're running for gear at end-game...
Thing is, once in a while an unattuned rune is gonna drop. Bonus! Unattuned runes, once you pop them in, hit you with +affixes associated with them. So, you can go the safe route with a tuned rune (crimson, alabaster, etc), but when you get an unattuned runes, pop that baby in and see if it's what you want! If it is, SCORE! Awesome rune, plus stats! If not, SLANG IT ON THE AH. And that brings me to my next point:
You can buy the perfect rune for your build on the AH, from the guy who found the rune, tuned it, didn't like the stats, and sold it.
Literally everyone wins. Everyone.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions."
-Thomas Jefferson
Thing is, once in a while an unattuned rune is gonna drop. Bonus! Unattuned runes, once you pop them in, hit you with +affixes associated with them. So, you can go the safe route with a tuned rune (crimson, alabaster, etc), but when you get an unattuned runes, pop that baby in and see if it's what you want! If it is, SCORE! Awesome rune, plus stats! If not, SLANG IT ON THE AH. And that brings me to my next point:
You can buy the perfect rune for your build on the AH, from the guy who found the rune, tuned it, didn't like the stats, and sold it.
Literally everyone wins. Everyone.
EXACTLY! I was fearing this wasn't the case when I first heard of the new system so that's why I started thinking just like that.
I don't think anything with regards to runes is confirmed yet. Yes Unattuned runes are on the D3 site but again, no confirmation on how its being used.
The only good news is that since all runes that drop are already randomized, adding an additional type of rune (in this case unassigned) is pretty easy. And as for all runes being dropped as unattuned or sometimes dropped already attuned, this is again fairly easy to implement.
Speaking as a programmer, the way Blizzard constantly changes its mind on stuff (for the good of the game), I would be very very surprised if all the functionality is already built in, just trying to decide if it works in game.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
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Seeing as how runes are our new "talent tree" it doesn't make much sense to me to randomize the result. I don't want to stick rank 7 runes into an ability and hope they appear as the type of rune I wanted, only to eventually toss all my gold away to get that type of rune from a mystic, only to have shitty affixes.
We already have random item drops, with random item affixes. I personally think it sucks that if we go forward with jay's proposal we'll be basically randomly specializing our characters. That sincerely frustrates me. Who the hell has time for that. I'd rather not sit around jerking off in town all day, personally.
Anyway, I didn't see anyone who thought randomizing runes was a great idea, so I figured I'd give my two cents.
Imagine to the contrary that runes are still locked to a skill and color, but you get to choose exactly what you want. The problem is that if you don't choose perfectly then obviously you've just gimped yourself and wasted the rune. Given that tier 7 runes are rare, it's absolutely critical that you choose correctly.
In effect, it's kind of like the skill point system from Diablo II, in that you need to do significant research or risk messing up your character. If you change your mind later, want to try new builds, or Blizzard changes the balancing of the skills, then you are out of luck.
Instead, if runes are randomly assigned color, then you can just pop one in your favorite skill on the fly and hope for the best. It still might require theorycrafting later down the road, but you aren't penalized heavily for making the wrong initial choice. In addition, there are always unusual runes floating around out there if you want to try a weird new build.
Now, to the people who would say "It will take too long to find the rune I want", I say that you have no idea how common/rare a tier 7 rune is. If they are totally random and drop slightly more often, it would take about the same effort to find your "ideal" rune.
And if you're of the "I think it's TOO random" crowd, this is obviously more of a personal preference. There are some gamers that like randomness and some that don't. Honestly Diablo is supposed to be random, so I don't see the issue.
(I'm still not sure I like the idea of paying gold to switch runes, as it feels like the "respeccing" they were trying to avoid)
Edit: Or perhaps you can craft it or just socket it and have it randomize itself.
For example, socketing a Rank 7 Crimson into your spell would just give the Rank 7 Crimson effects. No more, no less.
On the other hand, socketing a Rank 7 Unattuned would give you a randomized rune with additional Charm/Jewel type affixes.
If you just want to try a new build, you could just buy a single Rank 7 Crimson and use it to try out your build. However, if you really want to maximize power you have to buy or "reroll" multiple Rank 7 Unattuned until you get a Crimson with good affixes.
So you will presumably have the runes that you like already, while you're running for gear at end-game...
Thing is, once in a while an unattuned rune is gonna drop. Bonus! Remember, unattuned runes, once you pop them in, will also have +affixes associated with them. So, you can go the safe route with a tuned rune (crimson, alabaster, etc), but when you get an unattuned runes, pop that baby in and see if it's what you want! If it is, BONUS! Awesome rune, plus stats! If not, SLANG IT ON THE AH. And that brings me to my next point:
You can buy the perfect rune for your build on the AH, from the guy who found the rune, tuned it, didn't like the stats, and sold it.
Literally everyone wins. Everyone.
-Thomas Jefferson
- If the drop-chance for the 5 runes AND the unatunned runes are equal, meaning the unatunned rune acts as an "extra rune" totalling as 6, then I don't see the point of having the unatunned rune. If for instance you pick up an unatunned rune, you'll be like: well I might as well just use it cause the chances are as good to pick up 1 of the other 5 runes. Thus you don't really take a chance when using the unatunned rune.
- On the other hand, if the unatunned rune drops more frequently than the other 5 runes (BUT with the same drop-chance as the "6" drops mentioned above), THEN you're going to take a bigger chance/risk for putting it in a skill.
YDG?
The point, as posted previous, would be that the unattuned would act as a random variable. Say a crimson rune raises the damage of an attack from 350% weapon damage to 570% weapon damage, now the unattuned rolls as a crimson rune but in stead of 570% it could go to 700%.
Now there are still things we dont quite know yet. How rare will these lvl 7 runes be? Will we be able to unattune them with the mystic (and how much would that cost)? Also the AH will be swarming with runes.
Still if you get unlucky (like some people will) you will have to attune the rune to a skill MANY times before you can get the wanted effect. Maybe at the same time the rune for that skill is what everyone else wants (for example Crimson Rune for Meteor), so its either not on the AH or insanely expensive (or maybe you can just buy it for real money). Basicly you are screwed. And this is just for 1 of the 6 skills in your build.
I understand that Blizzard loves randomization, but i think doing that to our playstyle is the wrong way to go.
Anyways I'd probably just stick to regular runes and sell my unattuned ones. I'm not THAT concerned about min-maxing.
Here's a key thing: the website pulls data directly from the current game client (source: http://www.diablofans.com/blizz-tracker/topic/199920/hatred-changes#post21). This means that the website is showing us data from their internal client.
Blizzard is an iterative design company. Jay said they wanted to try this other system to see how it feels. So maybe it's just present in their internal testing right now to check out. If it turns out to be bad, they will change it. And change it again until it feels good.
I strongly suspect the version where only unattuned runes drop and you roll the dice every time you place it into a skill will not go live. No one really seems particularly happy about that idea. So I expect them to try it, find out it's too harsh, and then dial it back a bit. Perhaps unattuned runes will serve some different role, or be removed altogether.
The case that Jay Wilson made for it was that runes didn't have the same random character that the rest of Diablo's item drops had. I guess he forgot about gems, which drop of a particular quality and color. But to me runes are different. Runes are not a part of your character's gearset, they're a part of your character's skill set, or build. Random runes would be like leveling up in D2 and choosing a skill tree to put a point in. "Alright, let's put a point in Combat Skills, I hope I get Whirlwind! Darn, got Double Throw instead. Oh well, better luck next time..." That would feel super lame, because the character's build is the fundamental part of planning a class. Your gear drops are random and you hope to find gear that supplements your chosen build, but you've always had the freedom to choose which combination of skills and attributes you wanted to use. They've made runes such a vital part of how a character plays that I don't think they'll be able to get away with much randomness.
I think where they'll end up is runes will have a known color, lock to a skill when you put it in and have random modifiers as well. That way you can get the red rune you want no matter what (so that you can play your class the way you want), and you can continue the item hunt to look for the right modifier in the meantime.
First of all, I still haven't heard if it is or isn't like that. I assume it isn't, please correct me if I'm wrong.
In short, I believe keeping plain Runes in addition to Unattuned Runes alleviates the frustration but keeps the fun parts of the new system.
They should have regular Runes still drop but they don't have any of the stat bonuses of Attuned Runes. This way people can go with "what they know" (or feel) to work by using regular Runes until they find/trade/buy that Attuned Rune they are really looking for. This allows people to experiment with Unattuned Runes but still have regular Rune "backups" to use.
Allow the Mystic (or something) to create regular Rune types at a decent cost + materials and keep Unattuned Runes as a loot drop. Best of both worlds. People will still really want the Unattuned Runes since they will have stat affixes.
I think the system could work awesomely if they keep both types of Runes in. I can see how it could be frustrating having such a random factor to something that is supposed to be a HUGE/KEY part to customizing your play style, BUT...I can also see how it can be fun/exciting to experiment and find the PERFECT Rune or to buy and sell them.
I'm pretty torn between the old system and the new one, which is why I started thinking about this.
When the article on the change was first posted on Diablofans, I too got the impression that ALL runes were unattuned or plain, at drop. Later however, a mod changed it to ease up some confusion.
If both types drop, by 60 you will presumably have the runes that you like already, while you're running for gear at end-game...
Thing is, once in a while an unattuned rune is gonna drop. Bonus! Unattuned runes, once you pop them in, hit you with +affixes associated with them. So, you can go the safe route with a tuned rune (crimson, alabaster, etc), but when you get an unattuned runes, pop that baby in and see if it's what you want! If it is, SCORE! Awesome rune, plus stats! If not, SLANG IT ON THE AH. And that brings me to my next point:
You can buy the perfect rune for your build on the AH, from the guy who found the rune, tuned it, didn't like the stats, and sold it.
Literally everyone wins. Everyone.
-Thomas Jefferson
Thanks for clearing it up for me and sharing your thoughts guys
EXACTLY! I was fearing this wasn't the case when I first heard of the new system so that's why I started thinking just like that.
I'd be really glad if both dropped, like the OP said, it's the best of both worlds.
The only good news is that since all runes that drop are already randomized, adding an additional type of rune (in this case unassigned) is pretty easy. And as for all runes being dropped as unattuned or sometimes dropped already attuned, this is again fairly easy to implement.
Speaking as a programmer, the way Blizzard constantly changes its mind on stuff (for the good of the game), I would be very very surprised if all the functionality is already built in, just trying to decide if it works in game.